And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

[gburnet]

500 bucks seem like a chunk of change to shell out for a Festool saw & rail? It could be worse - like 5 times worse if you want a guided rail saw with a 5" of depth of cut...http://www.mafelltoolstore.com/mks130ec120v.html

Of course, they're currently throwing in a $114 rail for free if you order now. That should sway some people, huh?

[tod evans]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

if/when i pop for a rail saw the mafell with the flexable rail will be what i get.

[Joining_heads]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

My brother does timber framing and they have several Mafell tools. By far the best build quality.

[Ottoman]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

That monster has a 5" cutting depth: Just think, I could gang trim three interior doors a once.

[Cornerstone Tim]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

I'm diggin' the cordless trim saw!

[BillWil]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

I've seen that Mafell with the flexibel rail at work - wow - is all I can say. Stores in a small package and the saw and rail both appear very well made.

[Frank-Jan]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

I first saw the mafell stuff at a building fair 4 or 5 years ago, (Allthough the company had been around like forever, they just don't make tools priced so, that you see them at jobsites often) They where demonstrating the portable panelsaw thing, looked very cool, you stay at the start of the rail, and the saw moves along the rail by itself, the dustcollectionhose stays at the start of the rail aswell, there is a channel in the rails, which is covered as the saw moves along (like a wide tapemeasure), so the DC hose doesn't have to move over the rail back and forth.

The flexible rail only works with the saw that only has 40 mm cutting depth, I believe it's the same saw that can also be used as a regular circular saw (it also has a swinging bladeguard, and can be locked at a cutting depth. Since a large part of the blade is exposed, I think the dustcollection is probably not as good as a festool saw.

I just wanted to check the German mafell site, to check the cutting depth of the saw with the flexible rail (just to make sure I wasn't BS-ing) And look what I found: link to new plungesaw promo thing Looks very interesting, especially the blade-change.

[Chippy]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

Greg,

I have 4 Festo rail lenths going back to 1989 when I purchased them with a Festo 9 1/4" saw. The saw had electronic controls and just didn't last on site so I threw it away. A good friend also bought 3 of the saws for shop use and they kept on breaking down so they ended up in a pile under a work bench. Festo withdrew the saw from the market. The rail system is good in theory but in practice it doesn't work.The tolerences between the rail and the base of the saw are such that the blade can cut into the edge of the rail. If I use the rail, I use it in reverse now with Dewalt saws. I run the edge of the saw base along the out board edge of the rail. It is nothing more than and expensive sales gimmick. A couple of welding clamps and a length of RHS aluminium is just as good and a whole lot cheaper.

Four chewed up rails going cheap you pay for freight.Payment in Euros or OZ dollars only.


Chippy

[Carapace79]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

Hi Chippy!

I don't doubt that you may have had problems nineteen years ago with a Festo saw, but I don't feel its fair to judge their current offerings by your experiences of nearly two decades ago. I own a TS55 and have had pretty good luck with it over the last 1.5 years that I've owned it. Granted, it looks like you've had a few more years in the field than I, but I just wonder how fair it would be to judge a current line of tools by their predecessors of several decades ago? For instance, some tool brands that used to represent quality and contractor-grade now seem oriented more for handy homeowners and weekend warriors, and brands that may have seemed chintsy twenty years ago now lead the market in some areas. Anyways, my two cents?.....

[Chippy]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

Caraspace79,

What is the name you go by?

The rule that I have followed in buying tools is, let your first cost be your last cost and buy the tool which will perform for the task. I do my research before I buy and I don't get sucked in by sales talk, promo's, special's and impulse buying, especially trade shows. I have no brand loyalty and I currently have 26 different brand named power and air tools. The reason I know that is because I have a spread sheet with every tool I own, power, air and hand individually listed, described and with serial numbers. I list date of purchase, place of purchase and price. I also record repairs and when a tool is replaced.

Now getting back to Festo rail system. The rail is still identical to the chewed up ones I still have. The saw is different and has different features but the issue in play between the rail and saw base is still there. I have not used the current ones so I can say no more. In recent times Festo like many power tool manufacturers have glitzed and blinged up their product to give it more show than go. Just look at the outer casings on power tools and all the curves and shapes and bright colour schemes. High street merchandising is now part of tool manufacturers ploy to get you to buy.

Not only do you have to consider the application on the tool you buy but the location where you mainly use it. I split carpentry into four areas. Outdoor footing and framing, site indoor fitout, workshop, and the back yard shed for the "home handy man". The most robust and durable tools have to be for the out side framing and at the other end product for the home handyman. The Festo market is pitched at the inside cabinet worker and the well heeled home handyman. I have yet to read any test report on Festo tools in trade construction magazines but there have been plenty in woodworking home handyman type magazines. I have a friend who is a partner of a large independent tool store who supplies government agencies and large companies with product. He is a Festo agent and has a Festo test centre set up and he tells me that the largest percentage of his Festo sales is to well heeled weekend wood warriors, especially administrative staff from the companies he does normal product sales to. That old adage, "sell the sizzle not the steak" is so true in the sale of tools.

Festo is now part owner of a Czech power tool manufacturer, called Protool. Before the downfall of the iron curtain, all of their product went to eastern bloc countries. Protool are manufacturers of tough durable worksite product and are marketed side by side with Festo. I don't know whether Protool are sold in the US or not. Like Festo they are quite pricey. Their circular saws starts off at three times the price of a 9 1/4" DeWalt sidewinder and start climbing. I have been able test out on site some of their product on site and I now own, two drills and one angle grinder. Their rugged construction and performance is out of the box and my Metabo and AEG drills are now relegated to back up. My QuaDrill is like nothing else I have ever used or seen before. It is a 4 in 1 drill, that is a drill, screwdriver, angle screwdriver and angle drill. I have yet to come across another drill that will drive a 12mm, 150mm coach screw into 100 year old red ironbark without pilot drilling first. The QuaDrill has the unique feature that you remove the the chuck by simply pulling back a collar, no spanners. I just remove the chuck, put in a hex tip and can screw 100mm 14 gauge batten screws all day long without the motor getting warm. If I need to pilot drill before screwing I put the drill in the chuck and then I remove the chuck with the drill still in it, put it in my tool bag,put in the screw tip and screw the fastener. That obviates the need for having a screw gun, a drill and two power leads at the same time.

http://www.protool.com.au/index.cfm?uk=1&hk=1
http://www.protool.com.au/artikel/ar...ten.cfm?id=468

Chippy

[Carapace79]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

Hi Chippy!

I don't have a lot of time this evening to read your entire post, but I wanted to let you know you can call me Tom. When I created my user account here I didn't realize that my login name would also be my user name.... anybody know how to change this? Ideally I like to post under my real name. So, anyways, I'm Tom Gensmer, pleasure to meet you Chippy. I'll have a chance later tonight or tommorrow to read and respond to your entire post, I just wanted to give you a real name to attach to my posts. I hope everything's going well for ya, I'll write more later. Have a good one!

---Tom

[Carapace79]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

Ok Chippy, I had a chance to read your last message. I very much agree with your philosophy on tools, and I think we're pretty similar in how we approach our purchasing and inventorying of equipment (I too maintain a spreadsheet for insurance purposes with all my tools including serial numbers, purchase dates, cost, etc). I've been interested in the Protool lineup, it looks really neat! Alas, it's not yet available in the USA, however a Festool rep I spoke with recently did indicate a North American Protool distribution is being considered. I have a Festool C12 drill with the interchangeable chucks, and while I wouldn't use it to frame a house, it is a really neat system!

As far as the play in the Festool saws and rails goes, I have a TS55 (their most recent smaller saw), and it has small knobs in the saw base that the user can tighten or loosen to adjust the play between the saw and the rib running the length of the rail, so hopefully they have fixed that which wasn't working so well in previous versions? I can only speak for my personal experiences, but I haven't had any issues, which is of course not to say that issues don't exist, I just haven't encountered them personally.

I also agree with you that a lot of the spendier tools (particularly trimming and cabinetry tools) tend to find their way into dentists workshops as often as in the hands of a professional. I have chatted with some tool manufacturers who lament these users, who don't appreciate that these tools are intended to be used to make money, not be picked over with calipers to determine if they are 1/100th of a mm out of alignment.

I try to avoid blind product "loyalty", though in my brief (seven years) time as a carpenter I've found some brands I tend to look at first (Makita, Festool, Hilti, Bosch, etc...). Festool has been reviewed by several professional trade publications here in the USA, including Tools of the Trade.

With the Protool line, are the various chucks interchangeable between the corded tools and cordless? Can the impact driver use the right angle chuck?

Anyways, I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers with my previous post, I just wanted to express that maybe Fes had improved their products some in the years since you were unhappy with them. I look forward to reading your future posts, I hope you continue to share your thoughts and impressions of Protool, gives us Yankees something to look forward to!

Best,
Tom

[Chippy]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

Kurt,

I should have included diamond and tungstan grit hole saws in my list. Unless you are drilling thousands of holes a 2 tip tunstan hole saw is fine, that's all I use.

As far as brand names are concerned, as I live in James Hardie land so I don't know what brands are available in the US. Just in case log on to this site as they have all types of hole saws http://www.bordo.com.au/

Personally I wouldn't buy off ebay as I prefer to look and examine what I buy and avoid any of the hassels of freighting it back at my own cost if the product isn't up to scratch.

Beach Boy, Ephraim,

Read my posts # 32 and 36. I have had the benefit of installing James Hardie product for close on 40 years now and the benefit of the mentoring of an old indentured carpenter and joiner for 10 years who was also using James Hardie product back in the 1920's when it was asbestos. Any form of shears or guillotine do not cut as cleaner cut as a 4 tooth saw blade or a diamond blade in an angle grinder.

Wearing a dust mask is about as much use as tits on a bull. Get a proper respirator.

Chippy

[Chippy]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

There is obviously a problem with the system. For some unknown reason one of my post have been posted to two threads.

Chippy

[Chippy]

Re: And You Thought Festool Was Expensive

Tom,

You said, "Anyways, I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers with my previous post".

I haven't got feathers to ruffle, I'm an amiable hairy arsed ex-para who has a skin tougher than a Northern Territory buffalo. I am however intolerant to BS and misinformation that gets posted on this forum. I don't care whether you are from Washington State or New York State or any places in-between I'll point it out. If you are sensitive to being called out, too bad, there is that old adage, "If you cannot take the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

Back on track, no, you cannot use an angle connection on a rotary impact or rotary hammer drill. Very few keyless chucks are suitable for rotary impact or hammer drills either.

Why would you want to change over chucks between drills? A change over would depend on compatibility of connection, male to female or female to male, thread and spindle size. The chuck on the Qua drill is definitely not interchangeable as the connections are not compatible with any other drill.

Tell me why did you really have to go to the expense of buying a saw and rail system? Don't tell me to cut a straight cut because that can be achieved at no cost at all. All of my saws have the measured distance between the blade and the outside edges of base plate marked on the top of the guard. On my 7 1/4" side winder saw that is 127mm and 40mm. I have a length of ply (17 mm thick because it was an off cut off a sheet of flooring ply) exactly 127mm wide. On the sheet material to be cut I measure the distance to the cut line minus 127mm, I lay the length of ply to that mark, clamp it with two welding clamps to the material and then cut the material by running the saw base along the side of the length of ply. I then have a piece of material cut in a straight line to the correct size. Set up time is no more than rail system, possibly it could be quicker the way I do it. So I have got a straight edge and would have money to buy more beer, a win, win situation.

I have to confess that I didn't buy my Festo saw and 4 lengths of rail, a grateful client bought it for me as a bonus on a job that I had done for him, he did pay the contracted price also. At that time it was the most expensive 9 1/4" saw on the market and he thought it was the best.

I have just seen in Fine Homebuilding that DeWalt have now come out with a rail system. Sorry I believe its an expensive gimmick which I have yet to find a practical useful advantage for. Try and convince me other wise.

Chippy