Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

[DonMirabito]

All,
I know the subject of EPA HEPA Vac requirements, etc. has been discussed here in other threads. However, I don't see that anyone has really come to any settlement as to which VAC's really even meet the requirements, except maybe the old abatement industry standby - Pullman-Holt.

Some have said that they would be using their Festool CT's. However, on another forum the Festool folks aren't yet stepping up and saying they comply to the EPA requirements.

I have heard that Fein vacs are not compliant either, BUT I was also told by my instructor (IIRC) that Fein was the governments choice for a vac when they were removing the anthrax from all the government buildings during that scary time and therefore the government seems to approve their use. To me that claim/statement is a little sketchy at best.

I have also heard that there is a new ANSI standard that is coming out or maybe just came out that is supposed to define a good vacuum for this purpose. However, I don't see any of the vac companies listing that standard in their specifications. An ANSI standard would make perfect sense. Then the EPA can just reference an ANSI standard that the device must meet. What a concept. Rather than their bull**** standard which any competent lawyer will have a field day with.

So anyway, it appears that all the vac's I have don't meet the standard and I have to buy some new ones. I don't want to spend money on something that is junk and doesn't meet the standard now and in the foreseeable future, so what vacuum are you guys planning to use that will keep us all out of trouble?

Regards,
Don

[S.Joisey]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

I think everyone is waiting for the standards to come out- the vac manufacturers and us contractors too.

I hope they hurry up. I need a vac.

[Shawn Prentice]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

Apparently someone on CT has knowledge of festool being in the process of testing their vacs. I have the fein myself and heard the same thing about the main post office in KC using the vacs to clean sorters of possible anthrax.

But, the fein rep I emailed a couple of times said they had conducted no tests for the EPA hepa standards and left the answer at "no, they do not qualify."

[frenchie]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

Even P-H hasn't tested their vacs, near as I can tell, the only company that has, is dustless techologies. They're not shy about telling you, either.

http://www.dustlesstechnologies.com/hepavacuum.htm

[DonMirabito]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

All,
One of the problems I'm having with all this is the vague description of what they are really expecting. For example, we have all been focusing on the HEPA filtering part of the vac which is important, but the EPA also has a requirement that we use a "beater-bar" attachment for carpeting. I have yet to find an industrial vac that has a "beater-bar" accessory never mind one that is HEPA. Now the interesting thing is beater-bars on home-owner type vacuums literally beat the carpet to "raise" the dust so it can be sucked up. What does the EPA say about the tools that raise dust? You know the "cutting, grinding, etc. phrase". The EPA says we need to have a shroud on them that connects to a HEPA vac so any dust created is contained. Well how many beater-bar accessories have you seen with a shroud on them? Basically, what I'm saying is that the EPA's half-assed attempt to define a standard that we can all buy into and support is completely impossible to meet. The EPA should not be in the business of defining standards. They should be specifying which standards they want us to adhere to. It makes it so much easier for everyone including the manufacturers if there is a standard like say ANSI or ISO or whatever. Those guys know how to define standards and tests for compliance that makes it all work. It is what the whole world does for everything else, but then again its the EPA they have to be different. What a bunch of....

Don

[Greg Di]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

I took the class today and if any of you are paying attention, there is NO post-test on a residential remodel to test for lead after the fact. No test fellas. You can vacuum for 8 hours and not know if you got all the lead unless you do a wipe test which as Certified Renovator, you cannot do.

You wipe down twice with baby wipes or what have you, and it will NEVER come truly clean according to the Cleaning Verification Card. So then, you do a dry wipe and call it a day. The instructors TELL YOU THIS.

The CVC does not detect lead in any way, shape or form.

You are using the HEPA vac after the initial demo as part of the "lead safe practices" but there is no test after that to figure out if there is residual lead. You hope most of it ends up on the poly.

Unless you are planning on bringing in a THIRD PARTY wiping company, you will never truly know if your site is clear.

The RRP practices are in place to minimize lead movement and spread, but please realize that you are not dealing with anthrax. Do the best you can and that's all you can do. It's certainly better than nothing, but you are not working in a clean room.

After taking the class, you'll also realize how much it's going to cost you to follow the rules, how much it's going to slow you down and how much you will hate garbage bags and poly tarps.

If you are a one man operation, I would say it's safe to assume that you would have to DOUBLE your time on site to comply.

So for HEPA vacs, use your Fein. You'll be fine.

Think of RRP as being just as safe as airport security. It's window dressing for the most part.

[GaryJR]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

Gerg,

Thanks for the heads up. I'm scheduled to take this class in February. I have to piss a Saturday away since I don't have time during the week.

[Shawn Prentice]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

So for HEPA vacs, use your Fein. You'll be fine.

Unless the EPA or OSHA or whomever else has authority over these guidelines pays a visit to your job. Or if you get taken to court in a lead related law suit like Gary has been talking about.

I will be taking no chances in that I will have all the proper equipment, as well as, insurance coverage. My agent is already working on this for me.

If anyone does work on federally assisted housing, i.e. HUD, then third party clearance tests are mandatory. If you fail the first test, the additional test(s) will cost you out of pocket.

[Shawn Prentice]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

Here are some extremely important comments made by a member of CT (WEPAC) recently:

"As an EPA Approved RRP Training Provider EPA License# NAT-RV-19137-1-EN (although due to an administrative glich I will be posted on the EPA's website January 11, 2010), I would like to offer the following FREE advice:

Watch what you say and type relative to your experiences and practices when dealing with painted structures built prior to 1978, in conversation, as well as, on this and other sites and blogs.

Some posters on this site have made somewhat incriminating comments, that might come back to haunt you.

ex: busted bags, not following disposable overgarment requirements, dust outside of the work area, etc.

"Loose lips sink contractors". Don't turn your company into an EPA magnet. Good Luck."


-The Westside Environmental Plan of Action Committee (WEPAC)

[hdrider_chgo]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

I will be taking no chances in that I will have all the proper equipment, as well as, insurance coverage. My agent is already working on this for me.

I'd be very interested to hear how you accomplish that.

[Greg Di]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

Shawn,

It's clear to me that you and I are on opposite sides of the spectrum on this issue. You seem to have made it your mission in life to rid the world single handedly of lead almost as if it's possible to do.

Lead is not a good thing. I agree on that, but you are CONSTANTLY fail to bring the real world into the RRP discussion. The Lead Safe Practices are a step in the right direction, but they are in no way a solution. They are a VERY inefficient stop gap measure set forth by an agency that is a huge bureaucracy that did not take real life into consideration.

I sat in a class all day with 23 other contractors who questioned every single methodology as absurd and impractical. I am not alone in this.

The entire system is flawed. There are no checks in place for the average renovator doing work in a typical pre-1978 house. Of course HUD housing has its own issues, but the MAJORITY of the world we work is NOT HUD.

I took the same RRP training you did, and I certainly did not see or hear any reference to anything other than a HEPA vac. No specs, no models. Just use a HEPA vac.

Again, the vacuum does not really matter in a single family remodel. It ABSOLUTELY, UNEQUIVOCABLY does not matter. At the end of the day, you are not testing for lead after the fact, other than wiping a VERY UNSCIENTIFIC baby wipe on the horizontal surfaces. And, even if that wipe is dirty after two separate passes, you will just do a final DRY WIPE and leave. That is WRITTEN in the process. THERE IS NO POST-TEST FOR LEAD!!!!!

I am not making this up, guys. This is the final step of the 7 step process.

Take the class and you will see what I mean. It will make you more skeptical if anything because if you know ANYTHING about Hazmat, the whole process of decon is just silly with this system.

[Greg Di]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

If anyone does work on federally assisted housing, i.e. HUD,

HUD and single family private are such different animals in this case you cannot even discuss them in the same breath.

THERE IS NO OVERSIGHT IN SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL RRP. It's basically the honor system.

I suppose you could offer your clients a third party wipe down, but it will cost money and at least three days of time to do as the wipe test must be sent out to a private lab.

Everytime you fail a wipe test, it adds three days at least to the job.

Meanwhile, your client cannot occupy the space until it's cleared. So, if installed vinyl replacement windows, that family would NOT BE ALLOWED TO OCCUPY their home during the work and after the work is completed and cleared. Even if you do not send out for a wipe, your clients have to vacate the house on a replacement window job because you'll be creating hotzones all over the house that they are not allowed to be near.

I feel sorry for painters, siders, and replacement window guys. They are going to get killed by this.

If you install a $100 vinyl replacement window, RRP requires you to poly 6 feet in front and to both sides of the interior, and 10 feet in front and to the sides on the exterior. Plus, you must create no entry perimeters outside of those ranges.

Imagine trying to install poly on the exterior of a suburban home with landscaping. Really, try to picture how you are going to install all this poly on the outside of a home and let's say maybe there's a slight drizzle or God forbid, a light breeze. What about those shrubs? Well, you can't poly them because they die from the heat and it's impractical to wrap a shrub, so the RRP says you don't have to wrap the shrubs. It's OK to just give them a shake and hope the lead dust falls onto the poly you tried to install.

Anyone see a problem with this?

And Shawn, I hope you have a super duper HEPA vac when you are vacuuming the lawn.

[Bill Robinson]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

Greg, I can only guess it is not that you are opposed to protecting young-uns from lead poisioning but it is something else.

I would be interested in knowing what that is.

If you really feel the rule is not adequate there is nothing keeping you from taking additional measures.

Would you be more supportive if there was a more stringent verification at the end?

Or is it that you really want to disregard the lead hazard?

Your experience is interesting, I have only taught one class however there were no objections as you report.

I have more that 10 classes scheduled in the next two months, maybe some of the folks you mention will be there.
I will certainly let you know.

In the mean time it would be interesting to know what it is you object to:

The RRP rule as it stands or having to take preventative action to reduce spreading lead.

Lead Billy

[Greg Di]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

Bill,

I don't object to doing things to make things safer. I'm for it.

What I am against is the government forcing an absolutely ridiculous process down on its citizens. If you are an instructor and you are an intelligent person, surely you must see some of the gaping flaws of these guidelines. If you don't, I'd be surprised.

Since you are an instructor, please tell us non-instructors how the CVC card is an effective means of clearing a single family house where lead was disturbed. Please tell me how I, as a CERTIFIED RENOVATOR, following all the steps YOU TEACH ME, know I didn't leave a trace of lead on the job. Again, I followed every single step you taught me, but how do I know and how does the homeowner who just paid me $XXXX extra know there is less lead present than when we started? Sure, if we follow the steps, it's PRESUMED there will be less lead, but there is no guarantee without a test. The EPA says you don't have to test and it's extremely IMPRACTICAL to test.

I don't know the answer to that one.

Where do we dump all the waste water that is riddled with lead following the guidelines, Bill? Where does it go? THE EPA TELLS US TO DUMP IT INTO A TOILET so it can flow into the sewer system and contaminate someplace else. Correct?

We must wrap all the debris in garbage bags and throw them in a landfill. Aside from the fact we are polluting the landfill (not that it's not happening now), we're also being told by the EPA to use a GAZILLION plastic trash bags (and miles of poly) that will never biodegrade.

Does this seem at all well thought out to you as an instructor? As a contractor? As a rational adult?

[frenchie]

Re: Once Again - Which HEPA VAC are you using/getting?

I hear what Greg's saying. Basically that the rule is so convoluted, unrealistic, and unlikely to be enforced in any systematic way (because it's convoluted & unrealistic), that it's unlikely to actually accomplish much.

He's got a point. Look at us, here - a bunch of people who are in front of the crowd on this, just by knowing about it, at all. Actively TRYING to conform to the rule, the deadline is < 4 months out, and we still can't figure out which vacuums will satisfy... Not for lack of trying, either - because the EPA folks didn't think this thing through very well.


edit - your post appeared while I was writing...

Where do we dump all the waste water that is riddled with lead following the guidelines, Bill? Where does it go? THE EPA TELLS US TO DUMP IT INTO A TOILET so it can flow into the sewer system and contaminate someplace else. Correct?

For real?

Then how come I have to buy a HEPA vac? How come I can't just mop & rag & a bucket, like I do already?