Economical Concrete tie system

[matt in golden]

So, what's everyone's favorite tie system for small jobs?

I'm looking to invest in a concrete tie system for residential, non-architectural concrete work. I'm interested in something cheap and relatively easy to store.

I've worked with the system below with a past employer for some small jobs and I think it will fit the bill, but I want to make sure I'm not missing the boat as I've never used conventional snap ties and wedges. This system uses steel walers that are roughly the size of 10m rebar, so they store pretty easily.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/co...l#producttable

Most of my past concrete work has been using gang forms and taper ties, but the concrete work I'm interested in setting up for is on a much smaller scale - like 4' frost walls for additions.

Thanks,

Matt

[David Meiland]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

Those are pretty much the same as the wedge ties I have used from Simpson. If you order accurately per job all you have leftover is the wedges. IIRC correctly they only make sizes for 1x and 2x, and you may want to consider something that allows the use of plywood form panels, which are 1-1/8" I think. Most of what's used here is from Award Metals. Not sure if they have a website.

[ddolman]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

Matt,
That system you linked to is the standard system for all residential in Alberta, and I thought everywhere. The ties are made by many suppliers and work with 3/4" formply which is the most common. The reason this system is so common is that you can trasport all the forming material for an entire basement on 3/4 ton truck. I personally switched from Kwik Strip etc. to Camlock so that I could get straighter walls. The downside to camlock is that you need tons of 2x4 for waler.

[dave_k]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

I think you have to look at your entire forming system starting with the panels you intend to use? Labor is a real killer in formwork and handling material unnecessarily is just a waste of time and money

How many foundations a year do you intend to do?

How are you going to transport your forms? Are you going to show up on the job with a truck load of plywood and 2x4's? Are to going to custom build panels detailed for a particular job or are you going to build a modular system? How many cycles do you think you'll get out of a panel? If your going with snap ties and walers how much lumber do you lose per job?

How may guys are on your crew?

You also have to think about how you are going to pour the concrete. Are you going to make up steel scaffold brackets? Wood cleats and scaffold planks? Or spend 60K on duraform?

When I was in college I had a little business on the side doing foundations for additions. I would do the jobs that were too small or had tough access for a boom truck, where the guys wth duraform wouldn't look at. I traded a drafting table for 30 sheets of form ply used once and I used snapties and wedges and free formed them. I made a buck, it helped pay the bills when I was in school but it was too slow and used too much lumber to be sustainable as a business.

You could probably do OK making up 2' x 5' panels out of form ply and 2x4's They would be light enough to hand set and run a snap tie or bar ties between each panel then make a few custom panels for the corners.

One tie system I use a lot are coil ties. http://www.spiequip.com/images/Coil%20ties%20A.htm You can tie formwork of almost any size with them. I've gone 16' forming machine bases with them and you use less ties/sf than snap ties. I have a whole bunch of wedges and coil tie ends. I usually go with the coil ties because of the versitility

[dave_k]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

Matt,
That system you linked to is the standard system for all residential in Alberta, and I thought everywhere. The ties are made by many suppliers and work with 3/4" formply which is the most common. The reason this system is so common is that you can trasport all the forming material for an entire basement on 3/4 ton truck. I personally switched from Kwik Strip etc. to Camlock so that I could get straighter walls. The downside to camlock is that you need tons of 2x4 for waler.

When I lived in Alberta we used to call those simpson ties strip-ez and they used a metal bar as a waler. They made for some really bad walls. As I recall if you got within an inch or two in overall length you were doing pretty good Thanks for mentioning cam-locks. I haven't seen them since I worked for PCL in 1984, we don't have them at all in Ontario, just wedges. I had forgotten all about those until just now, you could attach spiders to them for strongbacks. When I lived out there most residential guys were using duraform, only a handful of guys were using strip ez and they were considered pretty rough. 99% of residential formwork in Ontario is done with duraform

[matt in golden]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

David,

Thanks for the suggestion of Award Metals.

Here is a link to a system they carry that works with 3/4", 1 1/8" and 2X walers.

http://www.awardmetals.com/PDF/RIFinstall062007.pdf

Anyone use this?

Matt

[matt in golden]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

Darren and Dave K,

At this point I'm only looking at only doing a couple foundations a year - and addition foundations at that. I appreciate what you and Darren are saying about the wavy walls from the metal waler Kwik Strip system. The work that I see immediately on my horizon is for a crawl space and this system would be relatively cheap and adequate for that kind of work and that kind of work will make up the scope of the kind of projects I'll do, and I like the idea of only storing a pile of form ply and metal bars. That all being said maybe going with something like coil ties would be that much more versatile and leave more options open for me in the future even if it took twice as many trips with the truck.

It will just be two of us at the pours, no machine other than the pump truck. Rentals are limited in my area and the budget is tight, so I'm looking at wood cleats and planks for getting around.

Matt

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

Matt:

I've too used those little sheetmetal ties but they look ugly when snapped off, I prefer the "breakback" Burke Snap ties with the cones that you can plug, makes a much better looking job. I see they are now called "Meadow Burke", why don't you find the nearest Burke store in your area and go talk to them, they are experts in concrete forming and can probably give you a wealth of systems to choose from, both sacrificial and non-sacrificial. Nothing speaks to a contractor's quality so much as the appearance of his concrete.

[matt in golden]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

Dick,

Thanks, I think you're right that should be my next step - go talk to some of the supply houses for some more points of view and pricing information. Lots of guys around here do use the cone snap ties - I've just never worked with them myself.

Matt

[Bob Kovacs]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

Dick,

Thanks, I think you're right that should be my next step - go talk to some of the supply houses for some more points of view and pricing information. Lots of guys around here do use the cone snap ties - I've just never worked with them myself.

Matt

They're pretty simple to use and you end up with a clean cone to fill in to make the wall look good. All you need to buy are the ties themselves and the wedges that lock them to the walers- the rest is just lumber, which makes them cost effective as well. For 4' stemwalls, there's really not a need for anything more elaborate IMO.

[ddolman]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

As I mentioned earlier, the strip-ez (or kwik-strip) is by far the most common residential system used here. In residential, the concrete is never exposed. The exterior is buried and parged, and the interior is behind framing. That does not excuse sloppy work though. Most cribbing crews can get a basement square, level, and on measurement within 1/4" pretty easily. A 2x4 "ladder" frame is built and placed between the forms to control height and dimension. The system is pretty much limited to 9' walls though. The metal walers will last indefinately until they are lost or cut up, and all the waler for an entire basement will fit in the space of about 10 2x4s.
Dave, There are a few guys using Duraform around, but not nearly as common as strip-ez. That is the residential end though. Commercial uses various forming systems, but camlock is pretty common. Does your wedge system use two 2x4s for walers, or just one. I dont form anything much over 10' so a single waler is plenty strong and saves half the lumber. The camlock system has the same cones that the others have talked about, and you already mentioned the spiders for strongbacks. With the snap-ty ties we get here, it is sometimes difficult to remove the cone from the hole, but with cam-lock ties, the cone comes out with the tie ends when you snap them.

Back to topic though. I think an important decision would be based on what your local yard carries in stock. Around here, strip-ez can be found in any lumber yard in any town, but most others ties have to come from a concrete supplies house like National Concrete Accessories.

Here is the page with their forming supplies. They call the strip-ez system Quick Strip Ty.

[dave_k]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

Does your wedge system use two 2x4s for walers, or just one. I dont form anything much over 10' so a single waler is plenty strong and saves half the lumber.

You need double walers to seat the wedges. You get a nice straight wall with the double walers but it takes a lot of material and you waste at least 20% due to cutting every cycle. You can get snapties for 2x4 frame + ply so you can build panels and just use wedges over the panel frame.

[ddolman]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

You need double walers to seat the wedges. You get a nice straight wall with the double walers but it takes a lot of material and you waste at least 20% due to cutting every cycle. You can get snapties for 2x4 frame + ply so you can build panels and just use wedges over the panel frame.

That is the same wedge system (double walers) that I used when I worked for a different employer. Holding the walers in place while setting the wedges was always a little awkward and took a few guys. It also takes longer to strip since you use a certain number of nails. The camlock brackets hang on the tie by themselves and you just drop the 2x4s into the bracket and crank the handle. Stripping camlocks is also almost twice as fast as wedges. I asked about the number of walers, because I know there is a system that uses wedges, but has a built in bracket that allows you to use only a single waler, but I have never used them.

[dave_k]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

That is the same wedge system (double walers) that I used when I worked for a different employer. Holding the walers in place while setting the wedges was always a little awkward and took a few guys. It also takes longer to strip since you use a certain number of nails. The camlock brackets hang on the tie by themselves and you just drop the 2x4s into the bracket and crank the handle. Stripping camlocks is also almost twice as fast as wedges. I asked about the number of walers, because I know there is a system that uses wedges, but has a built in bracket that allows you to use only a single waler, but I have never used them.

I agree those cam locks are nice to use. I had forgotten all about them. Long double walers are awkward. I put a couple of toe nails to hold the top waler in place then a couple of spikes through the bottom waler, just enough to hold them in place until you get a couple wedged on it. It's pretty fast and easy once you get into a rhythm.

[philthegreek]

Re: Economical Concrete tie system

I don't do a lot of foundation work, but I have used the flat style ties because of the forming system I used. I was able to rent forms for a 30 x 30 addition for my local "Contractor Supply" dealer. Had to rent a stake side to get the forms to the job, but the set up was fairly quick (2 days just me). i chose not to snap off the ties on the inside as I used them to anchor shelving to the basement/garage wall. On the outside, the snap off was below the surface and only left 1" x 1/4" slot to be filled. I used a concrete filler ( sort of like fire caulk) to fill the slots, it was very quick. I certainly could not get that many forms on a 3/4 ton truck, that's for sure. The system had waler brackets which I installed 3 per side. I then used my wall truing struts to align the forms and secure for the pour.
Around here, there are like 4 different forming systems. I don't like the 1 1/4" flat panel system with the square rod ties because I have seen a couple of blow-outs with them (on a frost wall, for one ). I always figured you Kanuks had the same selections. I believe I used Wallties system, although Symons is very similar. Don't remember exactly, but the frames were steel with 1" MDO type plywood facing. They used a "key and wedge" system through the ties. Disassembly was a snap and there was no "pillowing" and a pressure washer made short work of cleaning the forms. Whole pour took 4 days, 2 set up, 1 pour, 1 strip out. I had 3 guys helping for the pour, but set up and strip out I was solo.