Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

[TSJHD1]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

Most customers won't notice a tapered piece of trim unless you point it out to them.

What about on the outside? If you hung that door plumb, and the wall's 3/4" out, you'd easily see that changing reveal on the exterior.

Tom

[Lavrans]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

It depends on the direction of swing. If the door is swinging out, yeah, you're going to see it, pretty clearly when walking to the side of the house. My point, though, is that the average person isn't going to notice it as much as you and I (people who look at these details every day).

I agree that it would be nice to repair that sort of thing, but when you're talking about fixing an exterior wall that is out of plumb you're talking thousands of dollars just to start thinking about the process. The only economical way to do it is to change the trim- If you can pull the jamb out a couple inches through some design in the trim you can start to really hide that wedge.

Most doors aren't going to be out of plumb enough to have to go to that extreme, though. If its say, 1/2" in a 6/8 door, it won't have much of a problem if you hang the door in plane with the wall. Even if it does swing open or closed on its own you can "manipulate" the hinges enough to ameliorate the problem. If it's more extreme, then you have to use other solutions.

3/4" can be hung in plane with the wall, but the door swing becomes more difficult to deal with, to the point where the client's convenience becomes a point of contention. I would start splitting differences there- a 1/4" wedge isn't going to be noticed by most people, and if it keeps the door from being a chore for the HO to deal with, then I would opt for that. (Or a bomber hinge!)

[TSJHD1]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

It depends on the direction of swing.

I disagree. Its a slider, not a swing door. A swing door you'd have to treat differently.

He showed a picture. Its an Anderson. Their exterior jamb protrudes about 1 1/4". If you hang it plumb, you have a couple of choices how to deal with the reveal, and the fins.

Remove the fins if you want the reveal to be 1 1/4" at the bottom. It would shrink to 1/2" at the top. I'm talking about the side jambs that will show on the exterior. And Chuck said the wall leans out at the top.

If you want to leave the fins on, and have the head jamb fin contact the wall, you need to do something about the sides. Whether you leave them on or not, you will see the reveal increase as you go from top to bottom from 1 1/4" to 2".

I think the outside was T1-11. Maybe it could be partially removed, and slip under some tapered rips attached to the jacks. Gradually feather the T1-11 back the point where it attaches directly to the framing. Kind of disguise it being out of plumb. That would take care of the outer reveal problem sort of.

Tom

[Lavrans]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

Sliders are easier. Remove the fins and just set it in the plane of the wall. You will see a wedge if you look at the jamb, but not the trim. This is the easiest situation to deal with- a wedge shaped jamb is also the least noticeable trim situation & is the one I would prefer. I really don't like sliders to be installed out of plumb because they will wear out and become very difficult to use much faster. That's a situation where use trumps aesthetics.

The solution you mention requires removing the siding back at least 4', and also the sheetrock on the inside if it is really important that you don't see a wedge on the jamb. I would rather see a wedge on the jamb, then the trim will lie flat on the walls, which is what you will notice. That's why what I was mentioning was why a swing door is more difficult, and is what I was talking about. Sorry for the confusion.

[TSJHD1]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

Sliders are easier. Remove the fins and just set it in the plane of the wall. You will see a wedge if you look at the jamb, but not the trim. This is the easiest situation to deal with- a wedge shaped jamb is also the least noticeable trim situation & is the one I would prefer.

It may be the one you prefer, but it is neither the easiest (due to ripping interior jamb extensions on a taper), and cannot possibly be least noticeable in terms of trim, since you WILL notice the reveal change quite easily on the outside. Maybe not on the inside since the jamb extension is wider there.

I really don't like sliders to be installed out of plumb because they will wear out and become very difficult to use much faster. That's a situation where use trumps aesthetics.

I don't think less than 1% lean will cause any functionality problems. Just can't see it happening. That's just my instinctive opinion on that one.

The solution you mention requires removing the siding back at least 4', and also the sheetrock on the inside if it is really important that you don't see a wedge on the jamb. I would rather see a wedge on the jamb, then the trim will lie flat on the walls, which is what you will notice. That's why what I was mentioning was why a swing door is more difficult, and is what I was talking about. Sorry for the confusion.

Yeah the siding is the problem with my solution, but I wasn't advocating doing that with the drywall. The inside will disguise the taper better, since the jamb extensions are wider on the inside.

But I don't vote for hanging it plumb anyway. You are. And you don't care about the taper. So let the inside be what it will. Rip the jambs. You cannot get around how the outside will look if you hang that door plumb, without some sort of creative solution. I still say it will look very bad from the outside.

And that will be a reflection on the job, and who did it.

Tom

[VTNorm]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

I have an Anderson 400 slider in my own house. It's 3in out on one side and 3 3/8 on the other for a 6'8" door. The doors are freakin heavy and anything other than a plumb install and the bottom wheels rubbed and made 'not good' noises when sliding - I know, I tried to install it in line with the wall so the trim would look good. Instead I'd rather deal with the funky looking jambs and reveals than risk ruining a $2k door.

I haven't trimmed it out yet but I'm leaning towards a 3-sided box with the jamb and face leg being straight and square and making up the difference opposite the jamb side where it's less noticeable (in my house anyway)...

-Norm

[Lavrans]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

...I still say it will look very bad from the outside.

And that will be a reflection on the job, and who did it.

Your imagination is getting away from you, Tom, as is your judging. It won't look perfect, I agree. And I do care about the wedge- I'd rather it not be there, but I'll put a wedge in if it is the right thing to do, rather than leave it out when I believe it will cause a problem.

I'm not at that house- the Anderson sliders I have installed haven't done well with tilt. Sliders don't last as long when they are at an angle, and 3/4" is enough to wear one side quite a bit- seen it, dealt with it.

Also, when I find the wall is out of plumb that far, it is very common to be twisted as well. Sliders don't do well when twisted. What do you do with a cross jamb? I'd put a wedge in there. How does that make it a bad job?

[TSJHD1]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

Yeah, that's good points. Except for the comment about my imagination.

What I meant by a bad reflection on who did the work, it will look like the install was bad, possibly, instead of the wall being the problem.

I agree doors should be installed plumb. But in this case I'm not so sure it really would matter, since there are other factors to consider. And I don't think that little bit of lean will hurt the operation of the door.

After going round and round on this one, if it were me I'd probably explore the siding fix to make the wall appear plumb, so I could install the door atleast a little better than 3/4" out. And make sure it isn't out of plane too. That's a good observation.

Tom

[Lavrans]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

OK, got my panties in a bunch thinking you were judging me :)

My apologies.

On that note, Merry Christmas!

And thanks for the point about shimming out the siding- it made me think that there's another selling point for rain screens. If you're already furring out the walls for a drainage plane you're halfway there for plumbing up exterior walls... Just a thought.

[David Meiland]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

OK... everyone bend over as far as they can and pull those panty knots out of their cracks. You'll feel better. I think most of us can agree that any install of a door in a very-outta-plumb wall is ugly, not a task any of us wants our stamp on.

I'd say we could all agree.... but we can't all agree on anything, like how many global warming deniers does it take to hang a poisonous PVC door unit in an out of plumb wall framed by a crew of AGW believers, while a paper contractor watches.

[Joe Carola]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

OK... everyone bend over as far as they can and pull those panty knots out of their cracks. You'll feel better. I think most of us can agree that any install of a door in a very-outta-plumb wall is ugly, not a task any of us wants our stamp on.

I'd say we could all agree.... but we can't all agree on anything, like how many global warming deniers does it take to hang a poisonous PVC door unit in an out of plumb wall framed by a crew of AGW believers, while a paper contractor watches.

Still would love to meet the bunch of momma luke pineapples who worked on the wall that was 3-1/2" out of plumb....

[Toolwhore]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

Still would love to meet the bunch of momma luke pineapples who worked on the wall that was 3-1/2" out of plumb....

Careful what you wish for Joe. They might beat the crap out of ya, with their white canes! ;)

[David Meiland]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

momma luke pineapples

Joe, that is one HORRIBLE, UGLY insult. I've never heard such language.

It is an insult... right?

[Kye GC]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

What kind of person could possibly let that get away and not fix it? Was it a new house or addition?

It was a modular. My guess was the guys at the factory hated their boss/company they worked for, or they were just complete idiots. My guess is everyone passed it on out of incompetence or a need to get paid for their portion, by the time it came to trimming it, I guess my cousin couldn't get paid until the place was "finished" and then the factory would send a crew to fix it. I really don't remember the reasoning, but it looked pretty damned funny with a door on it.

BTW I hope you weren't referring to me as a mamaluke pineapple whatever that is.

Kye

[always-learning]

Re: Out of Plumb walls....entry door install

It was a modular. My guess was the guys at the factory hated their boss/company they worked for, or they were just complete idiots. My guess is everyone passed it on out of incompetence or a need to get paid for their portion, by the time it came to trimming it, I guess my cousin couldn't get paid until the place was "finished" and then the factory would send a crew to fix it. I really don't remember the reasoning, but it looked pretty damned funny with a door on it.

BTW I hope you weren't referring to me as a mamaluke pineapple whatever that is.

Kye

Funny, I thought modular homes being built in a "factory environment" had tighter quality controls than say a stick built home......

Damn Momma Luke pineapples....... Haven't heard that term in a while.... I think you're dating yourself to the 80's Joe...