attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

[cldevelopmentllc]

I am going to be converting a deck to a screened porch by adding a shed roof. The home is wood framed with brick veneer, two story, on crawlspace. The design calls for a shed roof and the ledger needs to be located about 24 inches above the floor level of the second story, in order to provide a high ceiling for the porch. What is the best way to attach the ledger to the house? Will I need to open the drywall on the exterior wall to locate the framing (2x4, 16"oc)? The ledger is obviously well above the band joist for the second floor deck. Will I need to reinforce the wall framing?

Thanks in advance,
Chris G.
Virginia Beach, VA

[David Meiland]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

Fill out your profile please.

[cldevelopmentllc]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

filled out profile. thx.

[David Meiland]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

I almost never deal with brick veneer, so I can't address that part of the question too well, but I would definitely expect to open up the wall from the inside. You will need to add blocking for attachment of the ledger, and you will want to confirm that there isn't wiring in the way of your bolts.

Re the brick, is there an air space behind the brick or is it tight to the sheathing? If there's a space you will have a tricky time getting bolts into the framing that don't push the brick backward into that space when you tighten them. It is my understanding that ledgers cannot simply be attached to the brick, but like I said you can drive for miles around here and not see a brick veneer house.

[BigLou80]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

Chris,
my understanding from a few conversations with an engineers is that a a brick veneer will suport the downward force of a deck ledger but not the force of the deck trying to pull away from the house. That being said as long as you can design part of your deck to free standing and there for able to resist the force of pulling away from the house you can attach a ledger with regular sleeve anchors right to the masony it self with no need to attach to the house framing.
good luck
Lou

[dgbldr]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

BigLou, I agree the brick can't take in/out forces, but disagree with the rest.

If the ledger supports one side of the porch roof as described, the weight of the roof will have a lateral component (in/out) and I don't see how that can be avoided unless it's a flat roof. If the pitch is low enough, the forces may be small but I would still pay an engineer for an hour of his time before I tied that ledger into the brick.

David, houses around here are mostly brick and there is always an air space behind the brick, just like the rain curtain in other types of cladding. Unless that space is filled with overflow mortar by careless masons :)

[David Meiland]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

DG, how would you retro a ledger onto brick veneer then? It sounds like you would need some sort of blocking between the brick and the wall in order to tighten the bolts.

[always-learning]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

David,

I'm assuming that there isn't any way you would be able to tighten the bolts to the point that you would collapse the brick against the sheathing behind.
Most likely if you were to subject the bolts to that kind of torque, wouldn't the sheathing pull towards the brick & not vice- verse?

Chris,

IMO.....I'm not an engineer by any sorts....but I would consider dropping the height of the roof to the 2nd floor & I would be able to access the bolting area inside the 2nd floor rim joist. We are talking about a screened in porch & not a finished space, right?

Being that said, I would institute use of Simpson HD??A hold downs on the interior bolts & through bolt them into the floor joists. This would then tie the bolts into the framing of the home, vs just having the sheathing & blocking do the work. I don't believe that these would work in a conventionally framed 2x4 wall due to the lack of space & material to bolt them into to.

Either way, the exterior supports at the other end of the roof where it sits above the outermost part of the deck are equally as important (IMO). If the structure at THAT end is allowed to move -meaning that it's able to fluctuate up & down- (we don't know how well this original deck was built) then the lateral pull on the ledger board would be much more significant.

[rcgrimsh]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

This home is in Virginia Beach, right? I think they can get some pretty forceful winds there, and I would be concerned about the lateral loads from those winds. The local building official might have some guidelines for what they like to see done in a case like this.

Also, there's an article in the August 2003 copy of JLC that addresses the details of connecting deck ledgers. I uspect there's some helpful information in there.

[NW Architect]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

Structurally, add a couple of footings and posts along the house side of the addition and use a beam, not a ledger. Then, use some flat or twist straps to tie the beam through the head joints of the brick and onto the studs of the wall. It all need so be engineered because of those winds. Your greatest force is not going to be the gravity load the foundations need to hold UP, but the wind load that the foundations need to hold DOWN. Roof will need to be designed as a shear plane to handle the twist. You'll be investing in a lot of hurricane ties before its all over.

That said, the above is only good IF the addition has a concrete floor, no floor or base finishes, and will never be enclosed. That brick wall drains, has weeps at its bottom (or damn well should) and will forever weep onto the floor of the addition. IMHO, to build this way would require a real estate disclosure upon resale.

If you want to avoid that, then you have to take your brick wall apart above the addition, through-wall flash it, engineer a brick ledger for reinstalling the brick, and - - - silver lining - - - you can install the ledger for the addition in direct contact with the studs.

[NW Architect]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

Just saw the part about converting a deck. Maybe weeping onto a spaced-board deck (if that's what it is) might be OK. But if ts spaced boards, the screening of the walls will be kinda pointless, yes?

Anyway, you goe another problem. The existing foundations for a deck will not be adequate for the wind load of an added roof.

You are back to square one.

[TWhite]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

cldevelopmentllc, Va Beach requires a continuious footing for a covered porch or room. You will not be allowed to use the existing footing as is. As far as the ledger, I would pour new footings near the existing house footing. Also the new room should probably have a flat ceiling that ties into the existing house to resist pull away forces.

[dgbldr]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

DG, how would you retro a ledger onto brick veneer then? It sounds like you would need some sort of blocking between the brick and the wall in order to tighten the bolts.

We don't. For most decks, we make the deck self-supporting. That way I also don't have to worry about sealing and flashing any penetrations.

For a situation as described here, I would take out the existing deck entirely, pour a proper foundation for the addition (tied into the house foundation) and take off the brick over the entire area where the addition abuts the house. Put a steel piece to support the rest of the brick above. Then build the room like a normal addition, with everything tied into the framing of the house.

Can't speak for wind/seismic requirements. We ain't got none here :)

[judsteam]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

chris,

is this house located in chesapeake? we recently (july) finished a house where the buyers wanted us to do exactly what you are describing. funny thing is the builder next door added a room on to the back of the house after the brick was up. i know they poured new footings but i don't know how they handled the business on the brick side of the addition. it is heated living space so they probably added wall along the brick wall. the roof was up from the second floor rim just below the windows in the second story room above.

how big is the roof span going to be? i had thought about through bolting a beam/ledger to the rim between floors then adding cripples and another ledger above that to get the necessary slope of the roof. you could use sleeve anchors on the higher ledger to make sure everything stays tight against the house. you could add posts (set in proper footings) to support a single ledger as an alternative to through bolting.

regarding the finger space (1/2" or so between the brick and sheathing), i don't think it would be easy to overtighten the through bolts enough to move the brick or rim board. there are probably a significant number of bricks above the proposed ledger to put a lot of weight/force on these possible penetrations. also, there is probably enough motor on the back side of the face bricks to fill most, if not all, of this open space, there by eliminating any potential damage done by overtightening.

i would agree with the post about pouring a proper footing and installing posts and beams to support the rafters on the opposite side. if this isn't done well than the house attachment doesn't matter. good luck.

jud

[David Meiland]

Re: attaching ledger board to brick veneer home

added a room on to the back of the house after the brick was up. i know they poured new footings but i don't know how they handled the business on the brick side of the addition. it is heated living space so they probably added wall along the brick wall. the roof was up from the second floor rim just below the windows in the second story room above.

How would you flash the roof-to-wall junction in this situation without removing brick??