Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

[BGeezus]

I just checked out the newest issue of "This is carpentry".In one article,Gary Katz and Brent Hull discuss chair rail height.They go into some explaination and math of how the height is arrived at via classical orders and proportions.

http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/
page16

Correct me if I'm not understanding it properly,but to simplify,they seem to be saying that chair rail height should be approximately 1/5 of the ceiling height.So:

8 foot ceiling=96" divided by 5 = about 19 inches

10 foot ceiling =120" divided by 5 = about 24 inches

This seems very low to say the least.This would seem to contradict everything I've seen or installed.Is it just me?

This has implications for wainscot as well.Gary seems to be one of the best resources as far as understanding the proportioning and installation of mouldings out there.But it makes me uncomfortable thinking about tripping over a chair rail.

You've really done it now,Gary!

[[email protected]]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

BG,
The 19" height in dining rooms makes perfect sense because chair seats are generally just at 19" as I recall. So when sitting in them, that little notch under your knee cap is at just about exactly 19".

So when your little kid won't eat his broccoli, you can shove him into the corner and trap him there with the chair rail cap to keep him from escaping.

That's probably why chair rail caps generally have a nice gentle bullnose too, so you don't accidently sever his legs if the floor is freshly waxed.

[jeffaah]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

My rule of thumb is ABOUT 36" AFF. There are MANY factors that can change that measurement.

HO input
Archies plans
Int. Designers
Existing element in the house.

And this is the wierdest one.....actually measureing a HO's dining chair so the chair rail can do it's job.

Jeff

[Joe Carola]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

And this is the wierdest one.....actually measureing a HO's dining chair so the chair rail can do it's job.

Jeff

Jeff,

Read last sentence in #1 installation........

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/hi_wal...3737665,00.htm

[jeffaah]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

Jeff,

Read last sentence in #1 installation........

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/hi_wal...3737665,00.htm

Funny...it makes the most sense. But of the miles of chair rail I've installed....only a couple rooms took the chair height into consideration.

[Joe Carola]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

Funny...it makes the most sense. But of the miles of chair rail I've installed....only a couple rooms took the chair height into consideration.

Who are you kidding....you learned it from the DIY network..........;-)

[jeffaah]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

oh joe....Dems be fightin' words!!! ;)

[expatjon]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

My only objection to the article was those sandals on page 19

http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/imag/issue2/2.htm

[dixonpeer]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

I always thought the chair rail should be at 32", the height of most chair's top back rail, which would then bump the rail. This is the purpose of the chair rail. That height also looks good to my eye, either in an eight foot ceiling or a nine. Jim, seat height is usually 17", BTW.

[jobercian]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

I thought a chair seat height was 18"

The article was interesting, and I try to at least consider some of the ancient orders when proportioning things, but just about no amount of erudite references to old dead architects is going to convince my customers to have me put their chair rail at 22" sometimes what is right just ain't right.

Frankly I set the chair rail in my own house according to the backs of my chairs and the walls have indeed thanked me.

[always-learning]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

I just had a Dr.'s office inquire about chair rail. The Dr.'s personal office has chairs that has backs that are 40+ inches off the floor. THe wall is damaged at the chair height.


I really think that chair rail needs to be placed where it will do the most good and not just for design appeal. For actual use, the height should match the chairs, but then you have to move the chair rail every time the wife decides to switch out the dining room set.

I suggest you use screws so that you can change the height on a yearly basis

;-)

[archmolding]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

LOL Jefaah

wow was that artical written just for me?...Perhaps Gary and Brent need to build a website. Where we can all ask if our design is ok, before we build it...Oh wait thats this site! never mind. I was thinking www.architecturallycorrectaccordingtogaryk.com
LOL to long to type.

I did like the artical though, and learned somethings...Is that practical to modern taste? Probably not. I would have a hard time explaining to a HO or contractor why I have to build their wainscot or chair rail at 24in.

I think it would end up in a very confused conversation of why according to classic architectural proportions divided up in equal parts that vary on ceiling hieghts and aquiring the proper proportion based apon 15 parts, 2 modules, 14 modules, 1:7 ratio, 40minutes (what time is is anyways?) brent hulls height with those funky israelite sandals, and ultimately to get GaryK's approval, when I post pictures on JLC!

kindof a hard sell...

side note. In that artical on page 16...wainscot cap is backcut..ut oh!

This kind of stuff makes me want to carry a tape measure on me at ALL times so when I see chair rails, wainscot caps Ill measure it...for my own interpretation of whats correct or not.
I could get my own following! LOL
JK

[kawendtco]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

we usually set it at about 32" on 8' and 36" on 9'. roughly 1/3 the height of the room. but the chair rail is usually a cap for the top of a wainscoat of some kind or another. if it is truly chair rail say in a dining area then we match it to the primary chairs used in that area.

[[email protected]]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

Well, despite my flippant remark, earlier, I still like low chair rail, especially in formal homes with a lot of detail.

The only things I didn't like about that article is that it took over my whole computer and acted like a snail overdosed on paxil besides. And that a guy 6'5" with tiny little feet thinks that's normal. I'll bet he's working to stay vertical in a mild breeze.

Anyhow, I think many people miss an important point - namely that even though the top element of wainscotting is called "chair rail" there is often not a single chair in sight, particularly in hallways, entry foyers, balconies, great rooms, living rooms and so on. At least none that are jammed up close enough to a wall to scratch the paint.

I was also surprised that Gary and Brent were using many "atmosphere" type words that I was trying to use also to describe how lowering wainscotting height gives a whole different "feel" to a space.

To me, high wainscotting with blocky panels, wide stiles and rails, little base and relief to the base cap and the molding under the chair rail cap, just seem like a rural farm type of thing that has worked its way into the wrong house.

It is interesting that of the two architects I've worked for whose work I have most admired, and another whose job I regretably had to pass on due to scheduling confllicts - none of them were American born. One was Hungarian, one was Russian and the other was Greek. And all had experience in commercial work in this country before getting into residential.

At any rate, the Hungarian as I recall, ran most of his chair rail at 28". The other two, I don't remember, but I think theirs was about the same. But generally, it seems that most of other builders I worked for wouldn't go lower than 32". I will give the Hungarian one a call, and see if he has any digital pics of one place in particular that he can email me.

I have never studied architecture or design the way I wished I had. But even totally discounting ancient tradition, to me it just seems intuititively right that horizontal members should flow horizontally, accentuating the horizontal. To have a horizontal member purposefully comprised of panels run vertically appears contrary to the prime objective to me and just does not look right.

I think all of us are acutely attuned to the horizontal. Ever notice how quickly the eye picks up a door rail that has been tapered, but will pass right over a tapered door stile? Or how quickly you notice that a camera shot was on a very slight angle when taking pics at the beach with the horizon in the bacground?

Maybe that's because the only way we can tell that we're going out of vertical is by seeing changes in things we know are horizontal, so we don't fall over- especially if we have little feet.

All kidding aside Gary, that was a really good article, even if I did have trouble with all the "parts" part. I think I'm more of a percentage guy than a parts guy. I think it is terrific that so many carpenters are getting interested in elements of design.

While I agree with Dixon and Dave K that our jobs are not design, but are to figure out how to effectively and efficiently accomplish the building of them without arguing with the designers, we are nonetheless often asked for design help from less wealthy customers.

And it is much more satisfying to build something you designed yourself if it works. Historically, architects and engineers are offshoots of carpentery and masonry rather than the reverse.

I tried downloading the magazine so I could re-read at leisure, but this lousy windows vista can't handle it. It doesn't even like sketchup. Do you need an additional program to be able to open it up once you get it downloaded or do I need a better video card? Anybody know?

Cheers,

[markhoni]

Re: Let the Great Chair Rail Height Debate Begin!

If you would like to keep putting your chair rail at 32'', all you have to do is raise the ceiling up a little, so it's 13' 4''. Maybe Gary and Brent should do a followup article on how chair rail actually got it's name. Maybe it could put the rest of it in a little better perspective. And if Brent is going to keep using all those "atmosphere" words, he sould get himself a pair of size 10 Gucci's, and wear a pink shirt.