SW Builder's Solution

[jjunior]

Does any one have any experience using Sherwin Williams Builders Solution. I want to start using it when finishing basements hoping to avoid a lot of sanding. whic of course drives customers nuts. How soon after it is sprayed to you back roll. I have a Titan spray roller rig which i can use to spray and back roll at the same time.

[RWeber]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

I could write a book on the surfacer, but lets be sure we're talking about the same thing here first. They have a number of products under that title. There's the primer surfacer which gives you a lvl5 finish via spraying, and then there's the color coat.
If you're talking the surfacer, my short answer for now is, you won't spray it with anything smaller than a Graco 1595. A MarkV is better. You need a ceramic check ball. It will erode the steel one rapidly. You do NOT back roll. You apply it via airless and about a 521 or 523 tip, around 17 mils wet for walls, up to 25 for flat ceilings. It dries and levels in 24 hours. Lightly pole sand and you'll have a glass smooth wall.

[Mike from NH]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

jjunior,

You should learn how to tape and improve on your finish coat skill so you don't have alot of sanding to do in the first place. Relying on a surfacer to make up for a crappy job is not professional. But it will improve the finish, but that same finish can be achieved by a quaility taping job. Using a vacuum sander may be a good tool to own since the dust from your sanding seems to be an issue. I also think that to spray prime a basement seems like overkill for such a small project. A MarkV will run you between 3-4k.

So guys do you all appove of my responce to this post?

[RWeber]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

Since its just u and me, yeah. Theres no substitute for doing the finish work correctly. The advantage of the surfacer, if thats what hes asking about, is you get both the level 5 and a very good primer in one shot, and its a darn fast shot. The labor savings I think sweetens the pot some. But you're right. I missed the "avoid sanding" detail. Not gonna happen.
Unless you're at BT. Theres someone over there who pops up on occasion and lambasts everyone else because he supposedly does such good drywall work he never has to sand. Ummm. Ok. More power to ya, pal.

[jjunior]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

Hey Mike....

I understand fully what your saying about finishing skills and mine are pretty good. And yes I know how to tape.... you know what they say about making assumptions. How is it that you automatically assume that my taping job is crappy and I am unprofessional.

I am interested in the surfacer as a means of minimizing the sanding while still producing a very high quality product. Drywall dust has this amazing way of migrating to every nook and cranny of a house. Anything that I can offer my customers that will minimze that is worth dollars in the bank. We always do flat untextured ceiling so a surfacer looks like a possible answer.

[Greg Di]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

Drywall dust has this amazing way of migrating to every nook and cranny of a house.

Plastic sheets and blue tape work REALLY well for sealing off work areas. How many possible doorways could you have to worry about for a basement? One or two? Put plastic up, negative vent a box fan, sand away.

BTW...I thought no one here sanded. I guess I have to go back over to BT. ;)

[jjunior]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

Rweber

Thanks for the answers.... yes I was talking about the surfacer ...I was wondering about pump size..... now I know...But no backrolling? The SW literature says to backroll.

[jjunior]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

Greg...

I hear ya about the methods of minimizing dust (plastic, tape etc).... use them all. However.... with forced air heating systems all you need is one open joint in the cold air return and you have very efficient dust distribution system. And no we can't turn the heat off....

This was a discussion about Builder's Solution a product I was not familiar with... not a question about how to run my business.... what's up with all you guys..

[RWeber]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

You're reading the lit on the color coat or they biffed in printing their literature. Not that thats ever happened before, not. Absolutely, positively, 100% stake my dying breath on it, DO NOT back roll the surfacer.
Here's why. How much paint comes off a roller? I dont know either. But its not 17 mils. Everything you're trying to accomplish with the expensive pump and the heavy liquid you're going to dismantle with a roller.
The product requires a little prep. The area needs to be clean, and you need to ensure that you dont leave dust patches on the walls. If you've done drywall, then no further explanation necessary. That dust can make the finish uneven in those parts.
Heres a literature inconsistancy. In the lit they say I believe a 525 or maybe even 527 tip, the bucket itself says 21. I've tried several. Stick with the 521. 527 is almost unmanageable if your pressure is up where you want it (like 2800).
While its possible to sand out runs, and the first time you use it you may have to, you will also discover that you have a deep and very emotionally sincere interest in never creating a run for yourself again. Its almost like sanding concrete. If you've ever sanded straight durabond, that's similar, but easier. That undoubtedly is the greatest down side. Your spray technique better be good. If it is, you will look like a saviour sent from heaven. If it isnt, you'll curse the day you ever thought of using the product.
So, pump. Like I said. It needs to have a healthy motor. I believe I've mentioned before in these forums that the local SW put a brand new 1095 into service as a rental and a few trips out with the BS and it was done. Not just rebuild it and everything is fine, done dealing. When I bought mine, the cost diff between the 1595 and the MkV was only 200 bucks and the MkV is just stouter, but I've heard that Graco prices have had a change recently so no idea if thats still the case.
Tip I covered, get a spare, just in case. You want a mil gauge as well and test what kind of results you are getting on your first couple of walls. I've known guys that do a nice slow and very easy 15 mils in one pass. I cant. My brain isnt wired that way I guess. I do 3 passes. I know my speed, so I go horizontal around the room, then vertical, then horizontal again. It makes it even, and I kind of like having just a minute or so between passes for things to get stuck.
Did I say you don't want runs?
Prep - get a shop vac and use it. Any garbage within two feet of the wall, suck it up or the force from the airless will put it on the wall. Windows and doors, 3M plastic. And I figured out early on a trick. BS sticks to DW but not plastic. So on your windows, avoid having the runs below them. Pull your plastic across, pull it down, tape the sides and as you're pulling the masking down the side, a couple of inches from the bottom fold the plastic up to form a catch. Bottom over the top. Tape the bottom off and you should end up with a 3" smiley face at the bottom of the window. Spray that hits the plastic will pool there but not run down. Think cumberbund.
When you're done spraying a room, leave. You can go look but absolutely do not touch. I'm here to tell you, first experience, an hour after you spray, you take a look at it and you'll want to commit hari kari. Worst, most uneven god awful orange peel hack job you ever saw. It does that. Its drying, and it takes time.
The next day, its dry, smooth, even, amazing. I take a pole sander and just lick the walls fast. Any tiny fuzzies that got stuck on the surface as it dried, they're gone, and your walls will feel like polished plaster.
Wear a mask with a face shield. The fumes themselves aren't particularly noxious, but the sheer volume will kill you. The face shield you can get replaceable plastic covers so you peel and pitch them as you go so you can still see. Volume - plan on 100 sf/gal for walls or maybe a little better. You can easily burn 25 gallons in a small basement. Especially doing ceilings.
If you're used to running an airless, you know how you're always 10 inches from the wall? Yeah, don't do that anymore. Closer to two foot distant. When you squeeze the trigger, the gun will recoil so brace for that, then you want to watch the vortices come off the end of the spray pattern (which will be about 2 ft across) and you want the midpoint of the swirls hitting the wall. This keeps you from putting lines into the surface. You have to use the larger orifice tip to get the product through but the resultant volume means you have to back off of the wall more than you're probably used to. Upshot is you can do a 9ft ceiling standing on the floor.
Shake the product. They'll shake it when you buy it, but do it again before you use it. The settling is amazing. If you want to see just how, get a freshly shaken bucket, pour a quart out into a plastic mix tub, and leave it alone for a half hour. You'll have about 3/4 of an inch of pure sediment in the bottom of the cup. The primary solid in BS is pulverised quartz. It doesnt stay in suspension long.

[jjunior]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

RWeber

Thanks for the comprehensive reply..... now I know what I am really dealing with as opposed to what the Sherwin Williams people would like you to believe. Myth versus reality is what I like to call it..

Jeff

[quickpatch]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

Rweber, wow thanks. I am printing this one and saving it. That is the kind of information you can not get for any price. Thanks again.

[CapeTaper]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

I've got to agree with RWeber. I use the BS surfacer almost exclusively for priming. I use the Mark V with a ceramic ball (swap in the SS ball for finishing-texturing), 521 tip, about 2000-2100 psi, apply at about 2 feet away from surface, etc.etc. The SW people can be a little vague about the Builders Solution, particularly in stores where there have been no previous users. I had to learn about, and ask for, a ceramic intake ball on my own. Just recently I was told of an out of town SW store that sold a high end Titan machine to a fellow across the county. Hearing about what I was doing with BS, he went on his merry way and trashed out the brand new fluid section of his shiny new Titan convertible. My SW guy said he didn't think Titan even made ceramic balls for their machines. Anyway, I love the finished product, viewed the next day. It hides minor imperfections like no other I have used, and the finish painters, in after me, love it too. Oh yes - always sand , vacuum, sweep, damp sponge, etc. before - and never back roll after - Good luck

[jjunior]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

Hey CaperTaper.... thanks for the info.... like I said before myth versus reality... thats why I like to post on these forums

[-_wmp_-]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

ive used the surfacer, love it. However it personally took me a bit of practicing on getting the proper technique. Not long mind you, it was just a out of my normal spraying routine. IT goes on THICK, took me a scrap piece of 4x8 SR to get it down.

as far as skills go etc. The simple reality is that applying the surfacer can help increase profits due to decreased labor and time on the job. get a pump that can handle this stuff

From what ive learned over the years that over @ BT is that profits and business never enter into the arguments, only the ego of the poster. JLC is a place where one can discuss profit saving/losing ideas, scheduling, labor pool ideas and business aspects over the self inflating ego posting youll find at BT....

[frankm]

Re: SW Builder's Solution

WMP - does SW BS give a smooth finish without any texture or stippling? We are looking into using Tuff-Hide for current job (this will be first time) and want to make sure that the final result will be smooth as possible (with proper application, of course). Tapers finished to a level 4 and are off the job site, so skimming is not an option.

I would consider BS as well, but have heard a lot about Tuff-hide as well.