Nailing Hardi-Backer

[Shawn Prentice]

Re: Nailing Hardi-Backer

Kevin-Finding better, faster construction methods and solving/preventing problems are why most are here. I have been reading JLC and FHB for a decade or so now. Believe it or not, I have yet to meet a contractor in this area who reads either magazine. I've come across some who have heard of one or both, but don't read them. Go figure!? I've always treated my blue collar job like a white collar job, meaning that you'll rarely find a doctor, attorney, accountant, or other office type professional who doesn't continually educate themselves on new laws, methods, etc. I still run into the contractor who thinks there is nothing more to learn because he learned everything from his boss, who learned everything his boss, on and on. That's great in some trades or parts of the world where there are few new methods or materials, but these days in most areas of construction that kind of mentality puts one behind the times. I'm located in downtown Omaha and do most all of my work out in west Omaha where the money is.

Dick-That makes sense. Although, how could an inspector dispute or contradict a manufacturer's installation instructions unless the product was used or installed in a manner other than intended?

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Nailing Hardi-Backer

Shawn:

The codes are a minimum, the manufacturer can't write installation instructions that violate the code, although he can write installation instructions that exceed code minimums. I'll give you a real world example: A few years ago a customer picked out a Bosch dishwasher, the salesman told her that they don't need air-gaps, she told me that she didn't want an ugly air-gap sitting on her pretty black granite countertop. I thought I made a good two-part argument for to the AHJ: 1) Bosch says air-gaps are not necessary, the appliance is designed to work without them. 2) The new code, when the state adopts it, does not include mandatory air-gaps. My request was denied on the basis that the code required air-gaps, and the manufacturers don't write codes.

[Shawn Prentice]

Re: Nailing Hardi-Backer

The codes are a minimum, the manufacturer can't write installation instructions that violate the code, although he can write installation instructions that exceed code minimums.

Out of curiosity, do you know if manufacturers have to meet or exceed all codes to everywhere their products are shipped or just where the home office is located. It wouldn't make sense to design a product and print instructions for that product only to have building codes reject its intended use or look.

[alwaysconfusd11]

Re: Nailing Hardi-Backer

I would say no just based on the vast amount of products home depot and lowes sells that are illegal. Especially with regards to plumbing and electric.

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Nailing Hardi-Backer

do you know if manufacturers have to meet or exceed all codes to everywhere their products are shipped or just where the home office is located.

Manufacturers don't have to meet any codes, many times there are questions as to which installation instructions should be met, for example, with window installation, the code just mandates that windows be flashed in a waterproof manner, it doesn't tell you how, does the flashing manufacturer's instructions prevail, or the window manufacturer's, what do you do if there is a conflict?

[scuttlebuttrp]

Re: Nailing Hardi-Backer

Manufacturers don't have to meet any codes, many times there are questions as to which installation instructions should be met, for example, with window installation, the code just mandates that windows be flashed in a waterproof manner, it doesn't tell you how, does the flashing manufacturer's instructions prevail, or the window manufacturer's, what do you do if there is a conflict?

In the end if Building Inspectors are involved, their opinion is usually the final say. They can be just as old school in their thinking as some contractors.
Good recent example would be Kerdi. It's approved by the two main plumbing codes. We all know it works. Yet some inspectors even when handed all the info and proof still don't like it and won't accept it. So legally in their area for now, you can't use it. You either have to go the underground way to use it or go with a method that they're familiar with.
In the case of manufacturer's fighting, you have to throw the dice and convince one of them to sign off on it. For Ditra, Schluter demands unmodified on top under the tile. TEC demands you use superflex. Pick one company that you trust and run with it. Only one is going to give you your warranty.

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Nailing Hardi-Backer

We have prescriptive codes which dictate what you can do, then there is a section of the code that gives the AHJ authority to permit alternative methods and products, the usual method of getting an alternative approved is for the manufacturer to get a laboratory test report approved, called ES Reports (or legacy ICBO Reports). The approval or alternative methods or products is left to the discretion of the AHJ, he reviews the ES Report and decides whether the product or method will work in his geographic area to protect the jurisdiction form liability if it doesn't work.

BTW, the ES Report is submitted at the time of permit application so the plan checker(s) can review the laboratory tests, not submitted to a filed inspector who is just supposed to be reviewing the work for compliance with the plans.

[shawn23]

Re: Nailing Hardi-Backer

Aspartame is actually poison.
It turns into methyl alcohol in your liver and is illegal in Japan.
Only the misinformed and the ignorant will actually consume that crap.
Trusting fools.
So there is a good example of how legal codes can be bypassed.
The FDA has approved it yet it is toxic and Searle's own scientists and many FDA scientists said it should not be approved due to health issues they had found connected to it.
Yet it is everywhere.
Not that this really has anything to do with building codes, but there are lots of BS laws which are only there to make someone money, or protect some interests.
Domes took a long time to be approved yet they had lots of proof to show they were safe, it was building inspectors and developers who were stuck in their box home idea and couldn't get their heads wrapped around round homes.

[kawendtco]

Re: Nailing Hardi-Backer

Aspartame is actually poison.
It turns into methyl alcohol in your liver and is illegal in Japan.
Only the misinformed and the ignorant will actually consume that crap.
Trusting fools.
So there is a good example of how legal codes can be bypassed.
The FDA has approved it yet it is toxic and Searle's own scientists and many FDA scientists said it should not be approved due to health issues they had found connected to it.
Yet it is everywhere.
Not that this really has anything to do with building codes, but there are lots of BS laws which are only there to make someone money, or protect some interests.
Domes took a long time to be approved yet they had lots of proof to show they were safe, it was building inspectors and developers who were stuck in their box home idea and couldn't get their heads wrapped around round homes.

this what i was talking about several posts back. just because it is a law it isnt necessarily a law that is good for you. just because a manufacturer has obtained permission to produce something doesnt make it the end all to what it is you are trying to do. look at how well drywall mud worked 30-40 years ago. now it costs tens of thousands of dollars to remove legally because of the asbestos that made it function so well. it was pioneering spirit by different people to try to make a newer safer product that actually worked as well or better than before.

[AnyTask]

Wow! Just realised how old this convo is.
I'm new to this site and somehow came across this when trying to find how a certain code relating to my trade is interpreted.

I'm in Australia so not too sure if anyone here could help or if I'm in the right section but I'll explain anyway cause I think it's relevant to this.
So I'm a general building contractor but I specialise in flooring, making up about 98% of my jobs over the last 8 years through a sub-contract with a major flooring company here that's has contracts with several major bulk builders, specifically I do floating floors of engineered timber, laminate and vinyl that are mostly on concrete subfloors.

The code here is allows for concretors to have a tolerance of 10mm over a 3 meter distance where (depending on product being laid) our tolerance falls to 3mm over 3 meters with the laminate floorboards we laid for at this one job.

??????We grinded and filled relevant areas with self leveller to get the slab withing the tolerance of the code and manufacturers specs, yet with such a difference in tolerances we can get it perfect but I figure that's why they have a "tolerance" anyway.

So we laid this job, as we would any other and there is no bounce in the floor when walking on it, however we get a call from the site supervisor a couple of weeks later saying the floor is out of tolerance. So we go check it out and seems fine, still no bounce, straight edge shows 1-2mm deviation, which is within code and manufacturers specs.

We find out that the way this building inspector was checking with a straight edge, he was pushing down on one end of the straight edge to make the other end go higher, kind of like a see-saw. I've never seen it done this way, ever.

So we had a bit of an argument where I told him that you cannot influence the straight edge like that as doing that for any deviation in the floor makes tolerances pointless. He continues to argue that there is nothing in the code that says you cannot do it. So I'm mainly trying to find an answer to what I can do as I'm within code and manufacture specs, yet the building inspector says I need to fix it out of it own pocket.

So any help here would be appreciated. But at the moment I've hit a dead end, which in this case looks like building code and manufacturers specs are superceded by this private building inspector has interpreted the vba's standards and tolerances guidelines.

[Mark G]

Any Task, Welcome to the forum. Fill out your profile, start a new thread, and you'll get a lot of sound advice.

[Steve Pontious]

Long and the short of adhering cement board is that the thinset is there to hold it up...the screws are there to hold it down. You're just filling voids and the cheapest unmodified thinset is just fine.