Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

[Ed the Roofer]

The new system I just had built from Best Buy developed major problems after only one day. It was a Micro Velocity brand, Asus P5N-E SLI nForce 650i SLI, Socket 775, PCI-E, DDR motherboard; Intel core 2 duo E 6600, 2.4 GHz; with twin 320 GB HD's, configured in RAID Mirror for duplication. I had Office 2007 Bus Pro full edition pre-loaded and used Windows XP OS, with a 22" flat LCD monitor. I had 4 gig of RAM installed. 512 MB eVGA NVIDEA GeForce 7950 GT Video card. 2 optical drives DVD+/-RW Dual Layer Burners with light scribe.

Was it the darn RAID Mirroring configuration I had them set up on the dual 320 Gig hard drives?

Was it copying all the files from my old 6 gig crashed hard drive?

It won't even boot up to XP start usually.

It automatically runs CHKDSK and then stops at the 2nd or 3rd stage and just freeezes.

The mouse cursor locks up after about 10 seconds when it does sometimes get to the start up screen. The NUM lock key does not turn its light on or off, so the CPU is locked up, or so I've been told.

I tried starting in both Safe Mode and also Last Known Good Configuration, but it runs the CHKDSK and freezes up.

I tried booting from the 2nd mirrored hard drive, but same results.

I am taking it back to them, so I do not need to get this problem solved, but I want to know why it happened so I don't accidentally do anything again.

Best Buy service sucked. When I called them the day after I had it set up to notify them of the problems, they said they would have to charge $ 69.00 diagnostic fee just to look at it, or $ 159.00 on site fee if they come out to my office. It didn't work after one full day.

I will just have one built by someone any suggestions?

I think I will eliminate the RAID, from what Joe Stoddard advised on another thread previously.

I am not in a panic mode, but I would like advise please.

Tell me what I need in a powerful system that will do video editing and photo shop manipulation and Reno Works visualization software and am simple to use roof layout CAD program.

Ed

[jstoddard]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

Impossible to say for sure, but sounds to me like someone mis-configured the RAID.
It's easy to do.
My advice - if you want to buy anything other than something off-the-shelf -- have it built by someone who knows what they're doing. There are probably decent independent computer stores in your area. Look for ones where gamers congregate if you're looking for high-performance, or ones that cater to the graphics/engineering crowd.

JLS

[Ed the Roofer]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

Thanks Joe,

A gamer builder I know checked it out before I return it. For sure the RAID isn't working correctly.

Additional advice he said, was I should have gotten the Win XP 64 Bit operating system for a very small upcharge in price from the XP media center that was off the shelf. He said the 64 bit processor is only being 1/2 utilized, or actually he said it was running retarded.

He also said to have the two 320 gig hard drives set up in regular mode and get rid of the RAID. As you stated before, it is not necessary for my needs.

I'll give the store and their Geek Squad one opportunity to make the corrections and provide a 1 month complete satisfaction warranty from them instead of the 14 day return policy, just to ensure things are performing correctly. If they choose to not be customer friendly, the whaole system gets returned tomorrow evening.

He also suggested a complete system copy software named ACRONIS that he uses regularly.

Ed

[jstoddard]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

Ed
What the gamers are saying about 64-bit performance may be true- it is a more efficient use of your processors and memory IF you are running 64-bit applications, but keep in mind most business software today is still written for 32-bit systems and has to run in "emulation" mode on 64-bit systems. Most (but not all) applications will do OK - the biggest problems you'll run into are things like device drivers and utilities -but that's enough to ruin your day if you can't print to your printer, etc. And....anything running in emulation may actually run *slower* on a 64-bit system.

Unless you need to use something specifically designed for 64-bit, personally, I'd stay with good old 32 bit Windows for now. If you do decide to go 64-bit, just make sure everything you're going to use will work with it correctly and make those guys stand behind that - because most tech support depts. are not familiar with 64-bit systems yet and may not be able to diagnose problems with their software correctly, so you'll need better local support. Also - many won't support 32-bit software running on 64-bit systems at all...they'll tell you "you're on you're own". Just my .02.

Acronis TrueImage is what we recommend for local backup and drive imaging. Do a forum search on those terms and "rapid recovery".

JLS

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

Ed:

I'd stay with the RAID 1 you have, but make them do it right. A RAID 1 saved my butt a year or so ago, so when I replaced it I went to a RAID 5 so I am hot swappable and don't have to get the IT guy over. I recently added another array of RAID 0 for Photoshop swap disks. Running 5 drives now my chances of failure in any one increase by a factor of 5, so I have a spare sitting around just in case.

[Ed the Roofer]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

Joe,

Thanks for the 32 bit/ 64 bit info. It makes sense.

Dick,

Now, compared to what Joe has informed me in the other thread about my KERNEL.32.DLL in this same forum, Your response clouds the issue.

Will either of you expand on the point. Offline backup according to Joe seemed logical, but I don't care about spending a few extra bucks to have it on hand either. Joes point was that any storage at the same location that is not backed up automatically is not the truest and safest secure setup.

Thank you both very much for replying. If you feel the need to add more comments, please do so.

Ed

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

Ed:

First: You make sure you don't have a problem, so use a RAID 1 (requires two drives), or better, a RAID 5 (requires three drives). With a RAID 1 you still need someone who knows what they are doing because when you have a drive failure someone has to offload all the data and restore it, with a RAID 5 you take the bad drive out of the rack and replace it, then resume doing your payroll, or whatever. RAID 0 is striped, RAID 1 is mirrored, RAID 5 is striped and mirrored, I have a RAID 0 array for Photoshop scratch disks only, nothing is stored in the drive, it's faster than a single drive and if one of the drives goes there is nothing to lose. In a mirrored drive you lose the capacity of one drive, in striped you don't, so two drives in a RAID 1 only have the capacity of one of the drives, in a RAID 5 (mirrored and striped) you need a minimum of three drives and you only have 2/3 of the total usable, in a striped RAID 0 all is usable.

Second: You have a backup source in case your RAID controller, or your whole computer goes down, I have a backup drive in the front bay of my tower with a handle on it, if the house burns down I can grab the backup drive by the handle and run out of the house, everything ready to restore in a new computer. It is backed up every morning by Cobian so it's current to that morning, if I do something really important I can click the icon and manually run it. I like Cobian because it's in readable format, I can actually read and work on the files in the backup drive.

Third: Have an off-site backup service so if your house burns down and you aren't home, or can't get to the computer, you can buy a new computer and restore from there. I don't have this, if I was still building I would get one at some point. If there is any confusion between what Joe says and what I am saying, it's because SCSI RAID arrays are expensive and he's advocating a less expensive alternative. There are ways to do software RAID arrays, don't do it, get a hardware controller, there are now ATA RAID controllers which are considerably less expensive than SCSI arrays, you can use "normal" hard drives, SCSI RAID configured drives are much more expensive, but also much better quality. I run all Seagates, the weight alone of my ATA 300 GB drive (USB, not part of either SCSI array) is considerable less than the weight of one of my 36 GB SCSI drives. My SCSI drives are 15,000 RPM, as opposed to the 7,200 RPM drives most use, and I use in my backup ATA drive. A SCSI drive is built like a Rolls Royce, compared to a Chevy quality in an ATA drive. BTW, I don't know the difference between an ATA and an IDE drive.

[jstoddard]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

ATA / IDE = pretty much the same thing. I've always been a "SCSI is the Cadillac" guy too - and somewhere in history that was probably true - but recent industry failure data doesn't really support that anymore. Good ATA (specifically SATA drives) are living as long as good SCSI drives.

What is true though is that you get what you pay for. If you're expecting to get something that lasts 15yrs of rough service for $100 at Wal-Mart - forget it.

JLS

[Ed the Roofer]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

Well I returned the system to Best Buy yesterday evening.

They refused to refund the entire amount, specifically the fees for installig the softwares and the initial setup fee for ordering Comcast high speed internet through them.

They informed me that it was there opinion that a software problem is what caused the computer to fail after turning the computer on and seeing that it immediately went into CHKDSK mode without being able to run.

My friend who was with me, informed them that it was the screwed up hardware RAID stup that caused the software to fail. They said they would have to reload the operating system and their would be a charge for that.

I refused to allow that and let them do there refunds for what they agreed to and requested the manager who I originally spoke with to contact me today to see if Best Buy was willing to take the right course of action. If they do not properly rectify the erroneous charges, I will be filing in small claims court and file a complaint with the Kane County, Illinois attorney generals office and which other venues may be suggested, including posting the experience on blogs and forums which are well read.

Dick,

From a legal standpoint, who is correct. I am not the beneficiary of the goods and services they charged me for. I returned the malfunctioning product in a timely basis at the 7 day point of the 14 day return policy. I have a belief that the RAID configuration they set up is what caused the operating system which was premised on my knowledgeable computer friend, (XP Media Center), to malfunction and make the entire product unusable. They stated that I was still responsible for the service charges, which somehow total up to $ 512.99 + tax.

What rights do I have to fight these charges for services which I am incapable of deriving any benefit from due to an improper or faulty system being delivered.

Thank You once again.

Ed

[bkerley]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

IMO and only my opinion

You haven't proven that the failure was their fault because the system was never returned to working order. Several people have opinions about what may have happened to cause the failure you desribed. However, the cause of failure still hasn't been proven.

As a result, you would likely have to pay for the additional services you ordered performed as there is no way to recover a loss of service. If you were to have them replace the system with a working one you could argue that the installation services should be provided free of charge as a gesture of goodwill.

I have bought several computers over the years and always know the person that built it for me. I also buy them without any OS as I prefer to install and configure it myself. My last one was not a gaming machine but was configured very similar to the one you returned. I paid well under a grand for it including the flat panel monitor. I use offsite and or portable jumpdrives for backup. I have come to view these things as disposable and won't invest alot of money in them.

[Ed the Roofer]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

Well then Brad, would you share the sites that you order your parts from?

The main one I am familiar with is newegg.com . I don't mind saving the costs for building a new system, but I am having someone I trust put it together for me. The only reason I went with Best Buy initially, was that I was promised my system configured to the specifications desired at that time, to be available in one days time. Now, I am not under a self inflicted time constraint.

Also, whether I have proven what caused the problem or not; Do I not have an expectation to be provided a fully working and functional system upon taking it back to my office? I completely failed to boot up to any start screen by day # 2 and on day # 1, the mouse and Word programs locked up and had to be rebooted just to continue with doing any Word document tasks.

I don't see this as a "I say --- They say" issue. I see this as a completely operable system being paid for, but not being useable almost instantaneously.

A simpleton example relating to my trade; If I were to provide and install a power attic ventilator, but it did not work due to installation arror or product malfunction, would I still be able to charge for that product or service? I probably would not be able to charge the Homeowner fot the final entire draw for the entire roof, if the entire system were not functioning as contracted for. I ethically would feel entitled to being paid for all other roofing service which were functional, but I would allow a retainage for the inoperating ventilator material and labor untl I got it to work as understood.

Ed

[bkerley]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

I don't buy the parts. I buy the entire computer assembled and tested with no OS from a local builder who build for edu and institional.

I bought one a while back from a guy in Canada (Nova Systems) for $400. It was the fastest thing running at that time and it worked fine for about three years and the drive disentegrated. It wasn't worth replacing the drive, so I replaced the computer.

Simple example:

You return the factory tested nonworking ventilator with no explanation other than it doesn't work now. It worked for a little while and quit. The vendor has no way to determine fault and through good faith and the desire to continue your business issues a refund.

Best Buy does not have the desire to maintain your business because they act on a national policy that is designed to prevent abuse by unscrupulous disassemblers that will substutute nonworking components and then try to return the merchandise as faulty.
It is a case of the few bad apples spoiling the entire lot for everyone else.

[Ed the Roofer]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

This is not about individual components. Even if that were the case, couldn't it be ascertained by part #'s on the individual components? Personally, I would not have thought of switching parts for a return refund, but I can see how others may attempt to do so.

They are still charging me on my Best Buy credit card for "Service" to install the hardware and software and for a Comcast Internet service that they did not hook up.

They did not send Comcast out to set it up as the sales manager stated they would be doing. Instead, they sent out a "geek squad" associate to plug in the devices to the internet for an additional $ 159.00 fee. There was no cable run to my office at the time, and the sales manager I ordered the service with told me they would handle everything.


Ed

P.S. I didn't order a box of parts from Best Buy either. I ordered and expected a fully operational system based on suggestions they and another member had given me. The individual components and their related install services are not what I purchased. I purchased an entire working high end system, not the sum of the individual parts.

[bkerley]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

Ed,

Just for the record I am entirely on your side with this issue and agree with you on every point. I have simply been playing the devil's advocate here because I went through very similar issues when I installed a network in my own home for DSL.

I got DSL from one vendor, phone from another and I installed the network. The DSL couldn't communicate with my network through the modem they provided. The DSL provider blamed the phone company for corrupting the signal. The phone company blamed my router and said that my network didn't conform to industry standards (because they didn't install it). Everything was plug and play and my computers had no problems communicating within the network it was only a problem when I tried to access the broadband connection. I eventually located the proper drivers and reinstalled the modem in a different configuration. Neither company would accept blame or offer to reimburse. It about drove me nuts.

Incidentally, Bell South has two separate phone lines run to my house and refuses to remove them unless I pay for it. I said I could remove them and they said they would have to charge me to repair or replace any lines that I damage. You have to pay them to attach the lines and then pay them again to detach the lines. The lines were in place when I bought the house and I just wanted them to remove the one hanging over my drive. We are now 100% wireless at home and I'm am going to take some hedgeclippers to the things one of these days.

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Joe, I'm Returning New Computer!

I'm not familiar with your state's laws, but it appears you are legally right for the most part, any product you purchase must be fit for the purposes intended, this obviously isn't since it doesn't work. On the other hand, you contracted with them to have Comcast install the cable run and supply and hook up the modem, you still have the value of that cable run so I would say that you are responsible for that part.

I'm glad to read that you purchased it on a credit card, at this point I'd do one of two things:

1) This is not a big issue, the computer can be fixed, notify them by certified letter that you are going to hire someone else to repair the computer so it does function properly and is fit for the purposes intended, will bill them for the costs of doing this, and then hire someone who knows what they are doing to fix it.

2) Return it to them immediately, everything they have supplied you with except the Comcast stuff including the modem if it was supplied by Comcast, then don't pay the bill, let them sue you for it, you will win. Hire a good IT guy to build you a computer, either buy some copies of gamer magazines to get an idea of which components are the best for your purposes, like Maximum PC, or just let your IT guy select and furnish the components.

What you say about Best Buy is disappointing, because of what you've said I certainly would never go in there, and will think differently every time I see one of those silly litttle box cars running around with "Geek Squad" written all over it, but we know how the cheap guys build hoses, so I guess it's no different in any industry, I wonder what they pay those "Geeks" building their computers?

There is a race in that industry to be the cheapest, they are on the verge of putting Circuit City out of business, and Circuit City has fired a large percentage of their employees and offering them jobs back at lower wages to compete with Best Buy, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone in construction, Hell, the construction industry pioneered this approach to screw people to undercut their competition. You get what you pay for, you know this, but don't feel bad, my first computer was a Dell, and after spending what seemed like half my life talking to Microsoft I learned from Microsoft techs (when they were still in the U.S.) that one should never buy a beige box off the shelf, either build your own or hire someone who knows what they are doing. You actually came close to that, you went into Best Buy and ordered the setup you wanted, you just went to a tract builder rather than a custom builder.

Good IT guys don't advertise like good builders don't advertise, they don't have to. How do you find a good IT guy? What about your friend? If he can't do it go into any major law firm in your area and ask who maintains their system, they'll probably gladly tell you.