What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

[Endicott]

I,m using a demo version of Chief Architect. Although I like the program, it is inaccurate in its framing ( unsupported wall corners, two framing members in the same physical space, etc.). Even their sample plans have those defects. That in itself wouldn't be so bad, but editing to correct the defects is difficult. I read jstoddard's post in the Chief Architect vs. Softplan thread, and would appreciate it if anyone who experienced/knowlegeable in the area of software framing detailing would sound off, expanding on that theme.

[RichardAIA]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

I have been using Chief Architect for almost 10 years (as well as Archicad for maybe 8). I can tell you that Chief has one of the easiest and most flexible framing modules around. It is extremely accurate if you know what you are doing. My guess is that you just haven't learn to use the framing tools correctly. Automatic framing gets you close, but there is always some modification necessary.

You need to build wall framing separately from the roof framing. Once framing has been built, it is VERY easy to modify. I have never seen the issue of two members in the same physical space, although I guess it would be possible if you ctrl-drag one framing member over another. If you are having specific problems, you should log onto Chieftalk (www.chieftalk.com) and post your issue there, and you will get lots of help. Before you toss the baby out with the bathwater, you should make sure you are using the software properly.

[Endicott]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

Richard,

I am not looking for a defense of Chief Architect, nor a criticism of my ability to use the framing tools of Chief Architect. I have been on Chieftalk, and spoken with their tech support people, and they have acknowledged shortcomings. I quote jstoddard's post of 7/3/2006 in part:

"If you need CAD-assisted estimating or detailed framing diagrams. you can send into the shop... - Chief is not going to do it for you. This all boils down to doing a formal needs assessment, figuring out the best software match, and *also* thinking about how you're going to fill the holes in the Swiss Cheese. Maybe the answer is Chief + SketchUP to create 3D objects + AutoCAD LT to gain precision for details . Maybe you can live with a little longer learning curve.... but the need for a configurable estimator is the card that tips it toward SoftPlan. Without a thorough needs assessment (which will inevitably uncover other aspects of your business operation that need re-prioritizing) you're just shooting in the dark."

I agree with jstoddard, and am looking to fill the framing detailing "hole in the Swiss Cheese"

any suggestions?

[Bill Lacey]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

Get a true CAD program (like AutoCAD) if you want complete control over where everything goes.

[RichardAIA]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

Richard,

I am not looking for a defense of Chief Architect, nor a criticism of my ability to use the framing tools of Chief Architect. I have been on Chieftalk, and spoken with their tech support people, and they have acknowledged shortcomings.

Sorry. The factual inaccuracies in your original post, coupled with the fact that you were using a demo version, led me to the conclusion that you were probably not very experienced with the program and therefore might be missing something that is already there.

However, if you can be more specific about what you believe is actually lacking in the program, or what you need it to do that it isn't currently doing, then you'll get better answers. What exactly is this "hole"?

[James Eggert]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

I have used Chief from back version 4 or earlier, I don't remember which numbered version I started with.

There is a CAD issue which everyone wants to ignore, and I've said it here and over at chieftalk, but I will say it again anyway!

I, personally, do not think there is software that can do everything is a certain discipline correctly all the time ANY TIME you try to automate that feature. Chief is no different, it will do very well, you then have to have the knowledge, both software and field, in order to tweak things.

Perhaps Autocad is perfect, I cannot say because I don't use it but did try about 10 years ago. But I would expect Autocad to have the same issues ANYTIME you automate something that software interprets from data created by humans.

Is CAD bad?? Of course not! But remember, CAD programs can only work with what we put in, and sometimes we do it differently than the software would do it, so the software comes up with a slightly different determination or result!

I use the framing module for looks; I use field experience for actual onsite erection. Sometimes I have the yard do an I-joist layout. However, a pretty picture is exactly that. A result of what we created, either correctly...or just slightly off! :-)

Just my 2 cents!

[ckelsoe]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

Hands down the best framing product is SolidBuilder from Digital Canal. It accurately frames roofs, walls, floor systems, etc. You can actually panalize your framing and it will work. In fact, if you can not draw it in SolidBuilder, you can not build it. http://www.digitalcanal.com/sb.shtml

However, it is not user friendly compared to Chief, Softplan, etc.

[jstoddard]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

Jim - Amen.
If you want endless, complete 3D flexibility - buy SketchUp, just don't expect it to count studs, layout plywood, or give you construction drawings. I've been teaching for years that you're not going to find any one design program that will do everything you need any more than you're going to find one saw that will cut everything you need to cut . It's not reasonable, or I think, even desirable, especially considering how easy it is to move work product back and forth between software using DXF, etc.

Another example - now that SoftPlan has (finally) put a keyboard macro editor back in... you can program your commands (move, rotate, etc.) to use the same keystrokes in both programs, making it even easier to learn multiple pieces of software.
JLS

[Endicott]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

Richard,

Take a look at the Chief Architect sample plan named Piedmont. It contains both of the framing defects that I mentioned, in addition to others. What "factual inaccuracies" are you referring to in my initial post?

[RichardAIA]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

Richard,

Take a look at the Chief Architect sample plan named Piedmont. It contains both of the framing defects that I mentioned, in addition to others. What "factual inaccuracies" are you referring to in my initial post?

I have scoured the Piedmont plan, and cannot find the example of two framing members occupying the same physical space. You would need to describe the location of this more exactly. It appears that the wall framing was built with "Rotate end studs" checked in the default wall framing DBX. This saves lumber but provides less "meat". Uncheck this, and rebuild wall framing, and the corners will have more studs. You can open any individual wall framing detail window and adjust any of the framing members there, as well.

The inaccuracies I referred to were:

1) It is "inaccurate in its framing"
As Jim and others pointed out, it is only as accurate as you draw it. It is immediately editable to a 1/16", so I am unclear where you think it is inaccurate. It may be inaccurate in guessing what you intended or want, solely with automatic framing, though.

2) "editing to correct the defects is difficult"
Chief has flaws, but this is not one of them. You can double click on any framing member and immediately adjust the size, or single click and move it, either by dragging or with Tranform/Replicate, again to a 1/16". What is difficult?

[jstoddard]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

Don't get me wrong here - I'm the guy who coined the term "cad-assisted estimating" a decade ago - long before there was "BIM"... but to me automated framing is a solution looking for a problem. It is literally almost impossible to programatically define how every piece of lid backing, blocking, soffit spanners etc are going to roll out for every possible structure, so when you click "Frame Me" they all magically appear in 3D and in fully-detailed construction drawings with no editing or massaging.

For the typical single-family home and the typical floorplan... what you need is a set of construction details that describe how you want corners and connectors etc. so you don't waste materials - and more importantly- where you want layout pulled from. The rest happens in the field. You do not need a stud-by-stud representation in the model in order to get a very accurate take-off, since that can be done through extrapolation and assembly formulas.

And if you're a panelizer, or doing high-end work that does require that kind of detail - what you need is a way to quickly generate the bones so you have something to tweak. Chief, SoftPlan, DataCAD - any of the builder CAD products do a good enough job at that. A couple clicks and you get something "close". Then take 20 minutes and clean it up - it's not a big deal.

I think maybe someone is looking for a magic wand that doesn't exist.

So enlighten me - what is the application here ?
JLS

[ckelsoe]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

SolidBuilder will do this

[parkwest]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

If you want accurate framing detail with a lumber list, a cut list, framing layout list, individual framing diagrams and lumber optimization pull list, then you would have to go with Solidbuilder IMHO. You virtually frame the house on the computer. Every stud is accounted for.

Funny, I first heard about Solidbuilder from an article in JLC over 10 years ago now. Went to the builder show that year and saw what they had and I thought I better buy it before they figured out what they had and raised the price. A true 3D modeling software for under $3,000

[ckelsoe]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

You can see some of the output created by SolidBuilder at http://www.digitalcanal.com/sb_sample.shtml.

Also, Monty Alexander at (800) 449-5033 X139 can answer any questions you may have. Mention that Charles Kelsoe sent you over so he will know where you got his name and number from.

Charles

[Endicott]

Re: What's the best software for accurate framing layout?

Richard,

Try "scouring" at the lower left corner of the garage, the entry to the family room, and the doorway from the garage to the laundry room. In my copy of the Piedmont plan, each of these locations has the condition of two or more studs occupying the same physical space.

parkwest and ckelsoe,

Thanks for your input.