Best estimating software for new residential; Homes and renovatiobs

[sticksandstonesinc]

We build mostly custom home and additions utilizing SIPs, stick framing, timber framing. Need a good estimating program

[Outfit]

Wow! No responses. I too would like to get some real life recommendations. Anyone out there?

[Jason Laws]

Wow! No responses. I too would like to get some real life recommendations. Anyone out there?

10-4 good buddy, I got my ears on.

Sorry, I don't use any software for that. For estimating, I am still a pencil and paper man, armed with a cellphone and a Construction Master calculator. I am sure someone here does use some software.

[LIHR50]

I build each project at my desk with a 6 page excel spread sheet.

[jstoddard]

First - you have to define what you really want to do. "Estimating" as builders/remodelers think of it is really a multi-headed snake... there is the quantity take-off/estimate so you know how many/much of this or that is required... then there is cost estimate. Two separate things. Then, you have to define whether you're looking for a rapid pre-sale estimate, something good enough to get you a job while protecting your margins... or a line-item estimate where you can take a bill-of-materials to the supplier and have it be correct. That's a very wide waterfront.

I've been doing this now for over 30 years - since VisiCALC in DOS.

My advice- first, you need to learn to do plan take-offs. You'd be shocked at how many builders doing 100s of homes/year cannot do this, and rely totally on others (subs, suppliers) to get material quantities. That is insanity IMO. If you do the type of work that requires drawings but can't yet mark-up a set of plans manually with markers (or digital markers) and come up with the basic project metrics - volumes, lineal feet, square feet, etc. then no computer software is going to help.

Next, I would learn how to use Excel effectively, and that includes learning how to set up VLookup and HLookup functions. (more on this later). Unless you're doing 100s of projects/year, you really don't need anything else. Get your head around building simple estimating templates in Excel (or Google sheets, or Smartsheet- whatever) before wasting money of dedicated "estimating software".

The absolute BEST online resource I've found to learn Excel is "ExcelisFun" on YouTube- a college prof who has put all of his coursework up there for the past 5-6 years. Do a search on "Excel Basics" once you're in his channel -it's 25-30 videos and supporting examples. Will take you a few hours to work through.
https://www.youtube.com/user/ExcelIsFun

Next, buy Jay Christofferson's "Estimating with Excel" it teaches all the basics Jay and his programmers used to create Estimator Pro . https://builderbooks.com/estimating-...oft-excel.html
Note - I wrote the forward to the 2nd edition - The 3rd edition is now out - it's a lot bigger and 2x the price, and it gets slammed on Amazon for being error-ridden. The 2nd edition is a quick read and gives you the background you need, so I'd just start there. If there are bugs with the 3rd edition they will be corrected by addenda online so it's not the end of the world.

Once you do that - next step might be to move from plain old Excel, to an Excel-based system like Jay's Estimator Pro (NAHB sells this) or better yet - look into Madera Estimator by Lorin Boyer, who is a participant here. Lorin worked on the NAHB product but has taken it miles ahead. Before jumping into this - I still think you need to know the basics of using Excel, you'll do much better if you work through the YouTube stuff above first. http://www.maderasoft.com/

If you already use a CAD product to design your projects - or even SketchUP- you can leverage your drawings by extracting bill-of-materials out of them. Some CAD vendors incorrectly call this "BIM" but it's really "CAD-Assisted Estimating". BIM is even bigger and more complex use of building data - CAE is really a subset of BIM. We've used SoftPlan's SoftList for 20+ years - and it's tweaked to report exactly like I need it to report - but getting there literally took years, and we still use Excel at times to do the finishing 'bits'.

There are also onscreen takeoff systems that give you the advantage of CAE without actually needing the CAD part. OnCenter is one - it dumps your take-off quantities into Excel, or the estimator of your choice. Again - this won't help you at all if you don't already understand how to do a manual take-off on a set of plans.

Ok - now... recap:
You've learned to take off a set of plans... you've learned the basics of Excel and learned to build some HLookup and Vlookup tables . You may be using SoftList or SketchUP or Envisioneer to generate a bill-of-materials. And you may have purchased an advanced Excel-based estimator like Madera. If you still need more - the next stop is something like PlanSwift, a database-backed estimator. Note that many of our clients wind up using PlanSwift plus Madera because one does some things better, etc.... http://www.planswift.com/

One word about "Database-Backed Estimators" They absolutely DO have many advantages over Excel -but IMO you have to be doing one s-pile of estimates monthly to really see those benefits, and there is a pretty steep learning curve required to set up and master database-backed estimators. Up until that volume it's more for convenience than necessity. I wouldn't discourage anyone from buying into a dedicated estimating product once they understand take-off basics and using spreadsheets effectively, but understand there is a steep investment of time/money required that might be better-spent doing something else. But manual plan take-off and basic use of Excel are still the two pre-requisites for any greenhorn estimator IMO, whether you're 18 or 88.

Also note that BuilderTREND now imports directly from several key estimating products, including SoftPlan and PlanSwift, and soon Chief Architect and a few others.

You wanted real-world - this is real-world. 80%+ of our clients use Excel and nothing else to do estimating. All of the other estimating products in existance fight for the 20% of the market that needs something more. One last thing - there are no magic wands or silver bullets. There is no product you can buy that will take you from not having ever done a real takeoff/estimate on Friday to an accurate complex bid and proposal on Monday. Believe me - plenty of contractors have asked me to do that for them over the years - but it is impossible. The people on this forum who use Excel will tell you they've spent years tweaking their estimating templates. The key to getting better over time is continuous improvement- you have to constantly compare your actual results to your estimates and update your templates and formulas as-required. There's no other way I know of other than to literally go out there and do "stud counts" - all materials not just the studs - which is another thing we have our production builder clients do- regardless of the estimating system they're using.

Hope this helps
JLS

[Jason Laws]

Joe, I feel that I benefited greatly from what you said. If start using the computer for estimating, I feel much more prepared now. Thanks.

And as a side note, what do the red marks under my name mean? Maybe it means nothing, but I don't really care for what I have heard about it so far....

[Ted S.]

My vote would be 10% software, 90% experience and historical information from passed jobs.

At that point I would think excel is perfect for a budget although you would not have the functionality of an accounting system.

[jstoddard]

[QUOTE=Ted S.;n1060008]My vote would be 10% software, 90% experience and historical information .../QUOTE]
No doubt Ted. All estimating software should be doing is adding up the numbers and making it easier to share the output. I get nervous when a totally unqualified and inexperienced person is using a database-driven estimating program to make decisions about what is going into the job - and that happens all the time at lumberyards and the like where some pre-programmed span table is inserting this or that..

RE: Not accounting systems... no, but you'd be surprised though how advanced spreadsheet systems can be- Lorin's system (Madera) will both generate POs and then do job costing against a budget. Jim Erwin's "BuildWorks" used to do the same - plus they will move the numbers back and forth to/from QuickBooks. Not quite as 'pretty' as a database-driven product like PlanSwift but still very functional. And with spreadsheets you can tweak them to do exactly what you want - not always possible with a hard-coded system.

Another thing you can do with Excel - if you do jobs that are 'pretty much the same' from one to another, just make a template file from those jobs with the numbers pretty much all filled-in. Then, when you start a new project, anything that stays the same can already be populated and all you have to do is tweak, saving a ton of time. Again it boils down to the volume of estimating you need to do - I wouldn't want to maintain 500 templates or 500 separate Excel projects per year... but if you're only doing say 50 projects (one per week) that is very doable in Excel.

More importantly - if you are going to eventually migrate to a database-type system, learning how to manipulate Excel is a priceless education of setting up formulas and relationships between different components of the estimate - it forces you to really think about what you're doing vs. just assuming some software is going to do it for you.

Here's my bottom line. I guess I'm sounding like an Excel fanboy more than I ever have in the past, but Excel is as important to our industry as a circular saw. Regardless of what other technology you wind up using over the years in your business - I think every person doing anything in the trades should have a workman's knowledge of Excel (or other spreadsheets - they're all pretty much the same) . It should be a requirement of graduation from tech school / journeyman programs for all trades, and builders/remodelers hiring new assistant superintendents should make excel proficiency in say, a year , a condition of their employment. There is almost nothing concerning time or money that can't be managed in Excel, and it's a skill as important as being able to read a blueprint IMO.

And they don't have to be "Excel Gurus" by any stretch -- An assistant super who knows how to hack together a basic spreadsheet to figure out something can use that skill for everything from "is that material variance our fault or did we get shorted" to "how many trucks will fit around the house" and even to create basic construction schedules. It's an invaluable tool IMO. It's also universal, and it's one of the few bits of software out there that still works pretty much the same way it did in 2016 as it did in 1986. Tons more to it now - but if you learned " =(A1+A4) back then - it'll still work today. And the versions that run on SmartPhones and Tablets are very usable -work great.

The www.YouTube/user/Excelisfun "Excel Basics 2007 1-23" playlist starts with #1-What is Excel and goes through every basic aspect of using spreadsheets to #23- the VLOOKUP function (which is the core of the commercial Excel estimating systems). If someone would, once a year , take a couple hours to review just that series they'd be in the top 10% of Excel users. Even if you want to work with a programmer like Lorin to build custom stuff - having that basic background will make it much easier for the both of you to communicate.

JLS

[jstoddard]

...a side note, what do the red marks under my name mean? ...

Where? Do you mean under your name in the forum here? I know literally nothing about the new site software or what they had to do to the forum software to pound the square peg into the round hole so to speak. I don't see red underlines anywhere (I'm using the Chrome browser)

What you're seeing could be specific to the browser you're using. Download/Install a different browser like Firefox , Opera, or Chrome and see if it's still there.

In certain browsers, there can also be add-ins that make things "clickable" - like launching an email to anyone with the underline.... or launching Skype to call any phone number underlined.... so what you're seeing could be something like that - and it could be coming from your own computer, having nothing to do with the site per se.

Note that there are innumerable "add-ins" that wind up getting installed behind your back when you install "free" software of any type from the web, or download almost anything. Or even open a spam e-mail by accident. You have to be really careful and look at every last screen in the installer to make sure you're not adding crapola to your computer that you don't want. Some of these utilities might be *a little bit* useful - but I guarantee you if they were installed as Adware /Spyware/FreeWare etc. they are also going to track you around the web, and 'phone home' to some advertising network that will then 're-target' you - or worse. And they almost always impact computer performance for the worse.

Or - it might be something else altogether - If you want - post a screenshot of what you're seeing and I can give you a better idea what it might be. To make a quick screenshot - just push the "PRTSC" (print screen) key - that dumps a copy of your screen onto your Windows clipboard. Then open an image program like "Paint" that comes with Windows and "paste" (use the (CTRL+V) keyboard shortcut or click the 'paste' from the ribbon menu) . SAVE your file as either a .PNG or .JPG format - those will make the smallest file size. Then you can either upload it here or just email it to me if the file winds up being too big to post on the forum (could be) .

PS - If you mean up at the top of the page - Right-hand corner... That's just part of the page 'scheme' - if you look all the other menu links at the left are red/underlined as well. They could be purple with a heart around them - it's just what they decided would look good on the site. Means nothing other than an underline usually indicates something is "clickable" so they used that to indicate menu items.

[Jason Laws]

Joe, I use Firefox and know that others have this under their screen names, too. In other words, in the gray box when you post something, under your picture (I should have been more clear) I just wonder what it is suppose to mean. Thanks for the tip - I have been using the screen shot for many years now and it still comes in handy - sometimes it is the only way to save something strange.

Anyway, here is the screenshot.

[LIHR50]

Joe your posts are much appreciated. Always full of good information and I value your opinion and advice. Thanks for taking the time post.

When I have time I'm going to view the youtube vids. I know I've struggled over the years using excel because of laziness. My accountant is a wiz with excel and if I knew a tenth of one percent of what he knows I'd be better off. I put together an excel estimating sheet and is simple to say the least, but none the less is very helpful to me and does the job.

[jstoddard]

Joe your posts are much appreciated.

Thank you not a problem - I've been laying pretty low through the "change-over" but will try to spend more time here (and drive more traffic here) in 2016.

DO - PLEASE - check out those videos - I'm lazy too, especially when I need to bear down and learn something new (old dogz new trix) BUT - this guy is one helluva teacher, and he has broken everything down into very small chunks, very easily absorbed. I mean it - they are that good and that well thought-out. Just do one or two a night - download the companion materials and actually work through every example - in a week or two you will be an Excel wizard. I'm starting on his latest "business analytics w/ Excel " course - it's equally good from what I can tell so far - these are college-level courses and he's posting all of the same materials his students get - pretty remarkable resource.

PS - Just before someone accuses me of shilling for another site or service to somehow get rich quick from a .00001% residual from his adwords or something equally as ridiculous.... I have no horse in this race whatsoever - have never even emailed the prof (another goal for 2016 - I want to introduce our community to him and what he's doing, he may not be aware of the amount Excel is used in residential construction.

When I get a chance I'll make an OFI (Opportunity for IMprovement) article and post it in the forum library to get people there more easily. His channel now has 2000+ tutorials and is getting tougher to navigate just from the shear amount of info there.

[Peeto3]

Just throwing it out there, I've been using WinEst for nearly 20 years. You can create filters to look at the job a hundred different ways, while storing it all in a database that is easy to access.

I use probably about 60% of the software, there is much more I could use, if I could just sit down for a solid week and learn it, but that never happens.

It may not be for everyone, and cost could be prohibitive for some, but it's worth the $700 a year for maintenance for me.

[Peeto3]

Just throwing it out there, I've been using WinEst for nearly 20 years. You can create filters to look at the job a hundred different ways, while storing it all in a database that is easy to access.

I use probably about 60% of the software, there is much more I could use, if I could just sit down for a solid week and learn it, but that never happens.

It may not be for everyone, and cost could be prohibitive for some, but it's worth the $700 a year for maintenance for me.

[Fine Finish]

I've been using Excel for the last 12 years for estimating purposes. I created my own spreadsheet with formulas for adding across and down as well as calculations to ensure that I have a 15% gross profit margin, to determine the number of hours translated to weeks for two guys, sub profit, materials profit, etc.

The biggest issue I have with the estimating programs out there is the time involved with learning them and then having to translate my "style" to the new program. I would love to find a program that is easy to use which doesn't require a week to learn in which time, estimates either are not getting out or I'm pulling double duty working the old system while working to learn the new system. My time is at a premium and I simply don't have the time available or the bandwidth after a 12 hour day in the field to sit down and learn a new program.

I do think that Excel is the "bees knees" and love the program's versatility and adaptability. The only limitation is your imagination.

In terms of estimating, I've developed a list of short cuts which lists the tasks and how long they should take so that I can say, for instance, this much time for door install with lockset. This much per foot for base, shoe and cap (craftsman style). This much time per square for "rake shake" siding install, etc. These lists save time and make it much easier to ensure that you don't shoot yourself in the foot.

Mark S.