What is your experience with Icynene?

[ryanhewett466]

Hey everyone, my name is Ryan. This is my first post on this forum. I see that this are many threads already on this subject but none seem to hit the nail on the head for me. For over a year now i've researched the subject of foam insulation. But recently i've actually began to ask around about it since i've begun to build my house and boy have i gotten the run-around on it. Every installer swears by a different product (icynene, insulstar, sealite, etc) After speaking with the icynene installer i decided that i would rather work with him because he seemed more sensible and didn't sound like he was reading off of a script compared to the others. But when i went to a heating and air contractor, he went crazy. Spoke of all these reasons that i shouldn't do it, that it might rot the house down and so on. So i googled "icynene rot" and found a few instances where people claimed the insulation caused moisture problems and rotting of floors and walls. So i present you all with this question, what would you do? This house is located in southern north carolina where the climate is mild and humid with a few extremes during the summer. I would appreciate any input. thanks for your help.

[James Eggert]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

So Ryan
According to your profile you work in the septic industry?

Amyway, to simplify, very much so, ANY sprayed type of solid filling insulation is better than fiberglass batts. The next step is to determine your budget so you can specify the density of the product you want to have installed! Open cell, closed cell, sprayed cellulose, green this, brand X, etc.

[David Meiland]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

I have heard of situations where foam insulation contained or redirected a roof leak so that it either went unnoticed for a long time, or was very difficult to track down because the water showed up a long way from where it entered. My BI here mentioned that there was a house he saw where that occurred.

I've had a few occasions to investigate foam insulation for my projects, and the Corbond guy I found is the one who had the most experience and information. Spray foam is still somewhat rare here and there isn't a lot out there in terms of product choices and knowledgeable installers. There are definitely a million guys who will blow FG or cellulose.

[newleaf]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

Regardless of the product, if an installer understands air barriers and the workings of the building, the material should perform well. Fiberglass batts are not good because proper installation is not enough, they need an air barrier as part of the plan.

understanding air barriers

from the Building Science Corp can help explain this better. You can find a great deal of info regarding building dynamics in you climate specifically as well.

[ryanhewett466]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

Yes, I am in the septic industry. Grade 4 licensed installer, basically anything from an outhouse to industrial systems. But my main job is pumping septic tanks. A lot easier with less hassle and good pay.

So Ryan
According to your profile you work in the septic industry?

Amyway, to simplify, very much so, ANY sprayed type of solid filling insulation is better than fiberglass batts. The next step is to determine your budget so you can specify the density of the product you want to have installed! Open cell, closed cell, sprayed cellulose, green this, brand X, etc.

[ryanhewett466]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

I was just quoted $11,870 for NCFI insulstar closed cell foam. Compared to $1,736 for fiberglass insulation, I simply don't see the return investment on this stuff. Even with the reduced size of the heating and air system. HVAC contractors have told me that they normally only down size it by half a ton for foam insulation. Not downsizing to a half size systems like these foam insulation contractors talk about. These foam insulation contractors in my area sound so full of it whenever they talk. A lot of times I hear them repeat the same exact lines that I read on the manufacturer's literature. Does anyone have some suggestions?

[David Meiland]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

$1736 won't get you much FG. Are you sure they're quoting you correctly? $11k sounds approximately like a 2000sf house, or maybe a large addition. Usually I would expect foam to be about 3x as much as FG.

[Bluewoodrock]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

Ryan


If your hvac guy is only downsizing by half a ton for foam- you need a new hvac guy. This is old school "rule of thumb" thinking, that just doesn't work when we consider houses as complete systems. Consider going to the building science site below and buying the appropriate guide for your climate. Joe Lstiburek's guides are an invaluable tool for builders, that show us how all the systems in a house need to work together.

http://www.buildingsciencepress.com/...x?CategoryID=2


SPF insulation is a great product- but it is that: a product. The greatest product in the world won't do you any good if isn't installed correctly, or if it isn't accounted for in the overall system of your home. If you hire some "run n gun" foam guys who don't know the whole system, your results will be less than optimal. However if you get foam installed properly as an integeral part of your building envelope, the savings you will realize from lowered utility costs should pay for the upfront cost difference in a few years. Unless of course you expect the price of energy to drop.


Here's a good service regarding insulation and proper house design to check out. As part of their service they will design and properly size your heating and cooling system.
http://www.energywisestructures.com/index.html



Hope this helps- go with the foam, but get it done right.( and don't get me started about foam and thermal/ignition barriers, you are right that there are lots of snake oil salesmen in the foam business)

[James Eggert]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

ryan
you need to look into SIP construction as a way to compare what the spray insulation will do. This way you can see why the downsizing of mechanicals is important for proper dehumidification as well as proper heating.

I don't know whether you were bid closed cell or open, nor what amounts, however, please do a little more homework before they blindside you! I still believe in both spray products, however, each has its place!

[ryanhewett466]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

Yet another foam insulation installer has given me another contrary opinion. If all adds up then apparently closed and open cell foam is bound to have terrible terrible problems in this area in the future, according to what open cell installers have to say about closed cell, vice versa. I've had it with these guys. That makes 6 installers i've talked to, 3 open cell, 3 closed cell and each side battles the other. I'm not a builder nor do I have interest in becoming one, i'm only a home owner trying to contract my own home construction. If there's so much controversy over which foam is most suitable for this humid area, then I as a home owner do not feel safe installing it into my own home. Thank you guys for your help, but according to the building department the oldest house in my county with foam insulation is only 3 years old and i simply don't feel it's had enough time to be time tested here.

[Bluewoodrock]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

Ryan


It's a shame these idiots have to try and sell their product by bad mouthing other products. I can understand why you are hesitant about the foam at this point.


The truth is closed or open cell foam would be a good choice, if it is installed as part of a properly detailed building envelope sysytem. I know you don't want to be a builder, but I would still urge you to buy the builders guide for your climate(mixed/humid). For a relatively small investment you can gain vast knowledge as to the proper way to make your house system work.

My point is there are so many things that are standard practice in the construction industry that are horrible ideas from a building science point of view. No insulation will perform well if the rest of the system isn't designed to work with it. No matter what kind of insulation you go with, do a little homework and make it perform the best that it can.

[rpadgett]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

"$1736 won't get you much FG. Are you sure they're quoting you correctly? $11k sounds approximately like a 2000sf house, or maybe a large addition. Usually I would expect foam to be about 3x as much as FG."

Sure it will, $1700 sounds about right for FG of a house of that size. If you need a good FG company, let me know, I have a number for the Charlotte area.

[CB Rob]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

Ryan, I agree- every foam saleman I've talked seemed full of something.
Look into blown in fiberglass or blown in cellulose.

[Reid Shalvoy]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

Yet another foam insulation installer has given me another contrary opinion. If all adds up then apparently closed and open cell foam is bound to have terrible terrible problems in this area in the future, according to what open cell installers have to say about closed cell, vice versa. I've had it with these guys. That makes 6 installers i've talked to, 3 open cell, 3 closed cell and each side battles the other. I'm not a builder nor do I have interest in becoming one, i'm only a home owner trying to contract my own home construction. If there's so much controversy over which foam is most suitable for this humid area, then I as a home owner do not feel safe installing it into my own home. Thank you guys for your help, but according to the building department the oldest house in my county with foam insulation is only 3 years old and i simply don't feel it's had enough time to be time tested here.

Ryan,
I just talked to a high-end custom homebuilder based north of Charlotte, NC, on Lake Norman. His company uses Icynene exclusively, so I figured he'd have your answer.

As for the moisture issue, they haven't had any problems with humidity.

For the efficiency question, they see (on average) a 40% reduction in heating and cooling loads.

And lastly, plan on having everyone out of the house while this stuff is being sprayed in. The chemical reaction gives off fumes that will make your eyes burn -- this I know from experience. Not fun.

Good luck.

[David Meiland]

Re: What is your experience with Icynene?

Sure it will, $1700 sounds about right for FG of a house of that size. If you need a good FG company, let me know, I have a number for the Charlotte area.

You may be right, it's been a long time since I got quoted on a fiberglass batt job. We generally use blown-in and for a 2500 SF house I would expect to pay maybe $8000. $1700 wouldn't even come close. I paid that much to get a garage blown a couple of years ago.