Asbestos ?

[Kye GC]

I am doing a remodel on a turn of the century house(turning an enclosed poarch into a sunroom). Well the owner wants her kitchen opened to the sunroom and while doing the demo, I got a wall full of What looks like a cross between captain crunch and kitty litter dumped all over me. This happened today. Well only had a dust mask on but immediatly closed off the area, came home, peeled off clothes and took a shower, then researched it.. Well I am pretty sure its vermiculite. According to the EPA Vermiculite from the Libby mine in Montana contains asbestos and half of the worlds vermiculite produced between 1925 and 1990 came from this mine. My question is what to do now. The HO is a friend of mine on a tight budget. I have removed asbestos siding, ceiling texture, flooring etc. by wearing a disposable suit cloves taped ankles and wrists and resperator. This job would not be as clean cut as the wall consists of several layers of drywall, lath and plaster, fiberglass insulation, two layers of siding, extensive blocking, has been studed out twice. Its about 12" thick. I cant see myself doing all of the work suited up. Also I wonder about all of the dust on and in my tools , it seems like the fibers would be blown out of my sawzall and circular saw for some time. How much does asbestos abatement cost? If it is too high I may just seal the wall back up and forget about the openings. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Kye

[dakota]

Re: Asbestos ?

First I am going to wish you good luck. You probably have a Night mare situation. asbestos abatement and clean up is a real night mare depending on your state laws. By now if the house were to be tested the whole thing would have to be cleaned. In many cases clean up is not expensive it is astronomical. Some abatement contractors are much more reasonable then they were 10 years ago when I was certified. You can expect to pay $100 / $200 per man hr. Worse yet is the legal issues. Your friend could be suing you years down the road for creating a health hazard. You could could be suing him now for not informing you of the health hazard in the house. There is no easy way out of this one. I must say for the record while the health risk is real it has been blown way out of proportion. If it were me I would close ever thing up and then look in to having the house professionally cleaned( this dose not mean Service Master)

[Finnegan]

Re: Asbestos ?

If this is a good friend of yours, I would get it tested. If no asbestos, no problem. If there is asbestos, then you may want to seal it up and forget about it.

[phillip]

Re: Asbestos ?

I would say just to do it and get it over with and where protection the only problem with asbestos is long term exposure like the ship builders that was exposed to red asbestos, other forms of asbestos are not as dangerous and minimal exposure will not kill you there most prolly is more asbestos at the the corner of a busy intersection (asbestos from break shoe/pad linnings) Now let a lawyer get hold of this and it will you will be at risk of going broke for working on a friends house. So you have the option to continue the renovation with or without abetment or close it up and walk away. Me I would remodel it and not say anything to anyone you are making the place better.

I remember cuting asbestos sheets with a skill saw and no mask and I am still alive


funny thing they sue all these asbestos mines and manufactures yet still let people buy cigarettes...

[RoyalOak]

Re: Asbestos ?

Big fun, vermiculite. Speaking as a MN asb inspector, consultant, and lab analyist you have just caught the most recent asbestos hot potato. Note in your lit. from EPA that the term "highly recommended" is used. You may also find on the EPA website that they don't find any current analytical technique for bulk analysis (testing of a chunk of building material) to be suitable for vermiculite.

We have analyzed many vermiculte samples in our lab and it is quite rare to find anything in the sample when analyzed using the standard PLM method. However, I can go into an attic and dig to the bottom of the insulation and find loose fiber bundles. I have also analyzed OSHA personal samples collected by abatement personnel vacuuming out vermiclite from attics that have had screeming high fiber counts. The asbestos is a contaminant in the vermiculate ore as opposed to being added to a building material and is consequently not very homogeneous. Currently, MN has taken the position that we assume all vermiculite to be positive for asbestos and treat it as such.

Abatement costs here go around $65/ man hour for union guys and generally less for the smaller nonunion shops.

What you have to do and the costs will depend on your state's rules. At a minimum the affected areas should have all horizontal surfaces HEPA vacuumed or wet wiped and the air scrubbed with a HEPA-filtered air scrubber.

[Kye GC]

Re: Asbestos ?

Thanks for everybodys advice. I Just spoke with the HO. She wants to go ahead with the openings in the wall. She has called for a company to do the abatement but has not heard back from them( she left a message). Is there anything I should know about dealing with them? I a little leary of abatement companys. I have no solid reasoning behind my view, but I worry about an abatement company overreacting and racking up a lot of costs in the name of safety. I suppose I could rent a hepa vac and air scrubber although if the cost is as low as RoyalOak posted they can have at it. What is the proper procedure if a contractor comes accross clearly known asbestos in a private residence? All of the information I can find on the web addresses homeowners. Thanks for the help
Kye

[dakota]

Re: Asbestos ?

Kye
Let us know how this plays out. It would be interesting to here how you end up handling this. When I was certified many years ago I could not afford the bonding and insurances so worked for an abatement contractor on a job by job basis. Lets just say my hr wage was about what Royal oak mentioned for current charges.

[RoyalOak]

Re: Asbestos ?

I'm just giving you guys the state of the asbestos industy here in the Twin Cities for perspective. I've worked in the environmental field with some very nasty stuff (stick your finger in this drum and die tomorrow) with a lot less regulation. Asbestos is very over regulated stuff in most instances. In MN we have 3 agencies with rules that don't mesh and often contradict each other. I can be very frustrating, I know.

Regarding the costs I thew out, things have become very cut throat here because we have very few multi-million dollar projects anymore. Furthermore, the union abatement workers get a lower hourly wage than a union laborer does. The guys tell me they do it because they can get the hours to make up the difference.

As far as how to handle an abatement contractor, I'd say abot the same as any other sub -- get a few bids and check some references. In my market we are coming into the slow time of year, so guys are hungry. The abatement should be pretty straight forward: a poly enclosure, water sprayers, hepa vacs, and a negative air machine. The workers should have standard PPE (suits ans respirators). You will likely be removing more than 35 cubic feet of stuff, so the project is regulated by EPA and possibly more strict state rules. Air monitoing during the project outside of the containment and final air clearances inside the containment before teardown may be required, but if the contractor can collect the samples himself they aren't very reliable.

What to do if you run across this again in a residence? It depends on the state for some stuff, but the OSHA and EPA regs are standard. A sneaky little fact is that EPA rules require an asbestos inspection be performed before any demolition or renovation work (40 CFR Part 61.145(a)). Enforcement of that rule is extremely weak as the existance of the rule is probably news to many. Even here in a regulation-happy state, enforcement requiring an inspection is only occationally enforced as part of a demo permit in some jurisdictions. Of course after the fact enforcement by the state always is a joy to experience with the citations and fines.

If a licensed abatement contractor runs into stuff that is suspect he has to deal with it appropriately because he is trained to know how to respond.

Awareness of what types of materials asbestos can be in isn't a lot of help considering it was used in an estimated 3000 types of building products. In a residence, if its not wood and its not metal you have a fair chance of finding some asbestos in a product. The rumor mill has it that we are currently getting wallboard from Mexico that has some asbestos in the gypsum as a contaminant from the mine. I have seen new ceiling tile from Canada that has Chrysotile (one of the asbestos mineral forms) as an ingredient on the side of the box because they don't regulate Chrysotile up there.

Its a slippery slope as far as exposure hazards go, I mean, where do you want to stop. I give my small contracting friends and subs some ad hoc training of the major stuff to look out for so they don't go and dose themselves (think pipe insulation, cutting transite, and pulling up linoleum). But my friends that I have in my mind are also walking OSHA violations, so I'd rather see them not fall off their scaffolding than worry if some joint compound contains 1% asbestos.

[swbuilder]

Re: Asbestos ?

I had the " captain crunch / kitty litter" experience myself about 10 years ago when I was helping in part on a fire damage restoration/ remodel. The house was built circa 1870's I was told. I was tearing out the lath and plaster in the kitchen and out flew the vermiculite. I had nothing but a throw away dust mask and the crook I was working for told me it didn't contain asbestos. Interesting topic though.

Randy.

[Kye GC]

Re: Asbestos ?

I took two samples to the the lab to be tested(one of the vermiculite, and one of some plaster) and got the results this morning NO ASBESTOS FOUND. I asked if they were using the plm method Royal Oak mentioned, and the Secretary who called me wasn't sure. She is having the lab tech call me later today.
Kye

[demy1942]

I joined the forum and I have about 50' of asbestos covering the pipes. I received one quote for removal in the 5-7000 dollar range. I was a little shocked at the cost. I then realized you have to have all the air quality people come in and then that is another cost. Possibly encapsulate the stuff? In NY a lot of rules. The stuff is not flaking and maybe just leave it alone?
Thanks

[Mark G]

Demy, welcome to the forum. Start a new thread. This one is 16 years old.