Deck ledger at brick veneer

[Jordan]

Okay, so this question is coming up more often as the code officials in my area learn more about the new IBC, and start enforcing the provisions.

How do you guys apply a ledger over brick veneer, presuming the brick goes all the way to the eave? Around here, the older builders are used to bolting the ledger through the brick to the band. Some of the younger guys have tried to simply lag through the brick to the band.

I'm curious, because no matter how you connect the bolt at the inside, it will support (practically) all of the load on the (non-loadbearing) brick veneer. We usually turn the beams perpendicular to the house and hang them with Simpson hangers on the band - often with supplemental blocking inside the band.

I've seen http://deckbracket.com/ but it won't work for brick (too short - only 4"). In addition, the cantilevered bracket causes a moment that induces torsion into the band.

[bkerley]

In short, I don't attach to the brick at all. I support the deck independent of the house and cantilever the joists back towards the house. This way doesn't create any additional loading on the structure and helps to isolate you and the house from possible water management issues that could result from poor original brick installation that would later be blamed on your penetrations.

I realize that certain circumstances could require attachment. I first try to avoid and second try to overengineer. Remove the brick in the area affected by the addition of the ledger. Install custom galvanized drain pan to redirect water from going behind the brick and make as direct as possible attachments to the actual framing/foundations. Then reflash (Vicor covered again w/galvanized metal flashing) over the tops of the deck framing. Finally, install deck boards.

I prefer to install my deck boards slightly below grade and use an additional piece of deck material attached to the structure parallel to the structue so any movement of the deck would occur beneath this board and not be seen from above.

[Bill Lacey]

Originally Posted by bkerley

In short, I don't attach to the brick at all. I support the deck independent of the house and cantilever the joists back towards the house.

This is what I will do on a plan with brick veneer. The contractors end up doing whatever the hell they want anyway, but at least I know a failure won't be related to the way I drew the plans.

[dgbldr]

Ditto bkerley exactly. We don't either. Same reasons and a couple more.

I might consider it if I could hang the deck from the house framing so only downward forces are exerted, i.e. with bridge rollers :)

DG

[gregoryj]

Freestanding makes perfect sense to me for low decks and existing construction.

But for elevated decks on new construction customers surely don't want extra posts near the house to look at. And the existing wall behind the brick veneer can certainly support the load. I'm not an engineer but it seems like the wall would also carry far more load laterally than typical braced posts.

The perpendicular beams seem to be the best solution I've heard so far but they better be flashed well and I hate to think about trying to replace them years down the road if they deteriorate. It just seems like simpson or someone could come up with a simple (easily flashed) ledger bracket that could be bolted to the rim joist and extend through the brick veneer without transfering load to the brick. If there is one out there I haven't found it.

[Jordan]

Independent decks are the "preferred" method, but that brings up the question of bracing. As far as I know, there is no prescriptive bracing method for decks.

I was principally curious if there were some guerilla methods out there that I wasn't aware of, as the easiest solution is often the one already in use somewhere. I can easily come up with several fantastic structural support methods that cost a fortune, but to make them efficent it helps to have input from the field.

[J.Buesking]

Originally Posted by gregoryj

But for elevated decks on new construction customers surely don't want extra posts near the house to look at.

I totally agree. If you're worried about water problems get your grinder and run you a 1/2" deep grove in the mortar along the band. Flash it out over the band lay your decking. I had to do this the other day for a under deck ceiling system I installed.

[S. Donato]

hey never saw this thing before and was on their website and saw that they only have an 2003 code compliance.

http://deckbracket.com/

anyone use them before? expericence?

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by S. Donato

hey never saw this thing before and was on their website and saw that they only have an 2003 code compliance.

http://deckbracket.com/

anyone use them before? expericence?

I've had a builder ask me about this, and his conclusion was that the bracket is not large enough to use for brick. Also, I've looked at the ESS report and it doens't manage to get around having to get an engineer - there is no prescriptive assembly or spacing, just a report with design allowables. That's not quite as useful as most builders might hope, though in more lax jurisdictions you may get away with just submitting the ESS report and building it however you see fit.

[always-learning]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I've had a builder ask me about this, and his conclusion was that the bracket is not large enough to use for brick. Also, I've looked at the ESS report and it doens't manage to get around having to get an engineer - there is no prescriptive assembly or spacing, just a report with design allowables. That's not quite as useful as most builders might hope, though in more lax jurisdictions you may get away with just submitting the ESS report and building it however you see fit.

Wouldn't it be simple enough, to have a local fabrication shop make you a set which was long enough to project through the brick?

Remove the brick in the area to be mounted. Attach the bracket to the ledger & replace the brick.

Sounds simple enough although an engineer would have to spec out the new size of the brackets (would have to be made larger....I would suppose due to the increased projection length off the home.) The brick would be spaced off the bracket & an appropriate sealer be utilized.

Waterproof & structurally sound..

[Jordan]

It would work. This could easily be made from a W6 shape. The advantage to the deck brackets is (1) they're cheap due to mass fabrication (2) they have different width top and bottom so that you can insert a bolt from the outside or drive a lag without a right angle drill and (3) they're aluminum so they won't rust. (no guarantees on the galvanic action with ACQ, of course).

Three things to consider:

(1) expense of cutting and drilling a wide flange (or an MC).
(2) There's no ESS for a generic version, so you add the cost of a PE
(3) You have to start thinking total load path - ledger @ 6" off the face of a band means that you create a prying moment at the band. The bottom of the band must be nailed to the plate sufficiently, and the top must have a tension connection between the band and the subfloor deck to resist the load - and three nails into the joist endgrain don't count, nor does the tension in the 6" o/c nails that are <7d from the edge of the plywood.

I've had a local framer ask me recently if I might do a similar (sealed) detail using stock parts for a small ($50-100) per-house fee. I haven't had the time to really pursue it, and I'm not sure it would really pay back for the risk.

[kinchyle]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I've had a builder ask me about this, and his conclusion was that the bracket is not large enough to use for brick. Also, I've looked at the ESS report and it doens't manage to get around having to get an engineer - there is no prescriptive assembly or spacing, just a report with design allowables. That's not quite as useful as most builders might hope, though in more lax jurisdictions you may get away with just submitting the ESS report and building it however you see fit.

It appears to rely on caulk for water intrusion. Temporary imho. On commercial construction a steel frame would be designed to install in the veneer to accept a vertical load.

[Frank Woeste]

Originally Posted by Jordan

Okay, so this question is coming up more often as the code officials in my area learn more about the new IBC, and start enforcing the provisions.

The IRC has restricted placing loads on brick veneer for some time. Here's the beginning of one paragraph from the 2006 IRC that addresses the issue. There may be other similar references to the same issue in the IRC as well:

R703.7.3 Lintels. Masonry veneer shall not support any vertical
load other than the dead load of the veneer above. Veneer
above openings shall be supported on lintels of…..


Frank Woeste
Professor Emeritus

[Jordan]

Hi Frank. Didn't know you lurked here, too.

The code enforcement has been lax for so long that many builders don't know that you can't bolt the ledger to the house through a brick veneer. I'd bet a dollar I could find a dozen houses within 10 miles of us that have been built this way - and passed inspection - in the last 12 months. (Please don't take me up on that bet...I have to drive all around <jurisdiction removed> all day to find 'em)

kinchyle- if the steel is "in" the veneer (but not supported by it, as it's against code) - how is the penetration sealed? Anytime you hang something off a strucutre and have to support something outside the veneer there is going to be a penetration that will be a path for water migration. We do commercial work also, and there are several ways to deal with the connection, but once you have steel on the inside, the support condition gets easy.

[debeng]

Here's one idea: Drill through the brick veneer and the rim board, the penetration through the brick veneer slightly larger than the bolt (usually 5/8" diameter bolt), insert a sleeve such a conduit cut to length from the rim board to the outside of the brick veneer, install bolts through deck band and rim board. This will provide for lateral tie back to the house structure and not introduce lateral load to the brick veneer. There will be some vertical load introduced to the brick veneer where the bolt and sleeve rest but vertical load to the brick veneer is not the concern (within calculated limits). The purpose of the sleeve is to prevent collapsing of the brick veneer into the air space behind.