any chance of you guys going metric ? :)

[retro-patrick]

These days an entire set of drawings can be rendered and printed in any measurement system.. But that would make some architects feel justified to charge an extra grand for that tap of the mouse button.


It's not related tot he topic, but I just stumbled across this video:
http://www.asylum.com/2009/11/03/for...-crash-moscow/

rP

[frenchie]

Originally Posted by ChrisVJ

For those of us brought up on imperial it is not 'working in metric" that is difficult, it is looking at a plan and visualising the size of the room.

I am in Canada. They have been metric for years but the carpenters, who learn metric at school, all seem to work in feet and inches, including the Frenchies from Quebec!

Yup. Tell me a room's 10' x 14', I can picture it. Tell me in metric, I have to convert it to feet in my head (and after 10 years in NYC, I've half-forgotten how). I've never, not even in Canada, known anyone in any trade, to use metric.

Temperature is metric, though. Even after ten years, "46 degrees" doesn't tell me much, it's abstract. I know it's a bit chilly, but... Tell me "9 degrees celsius" and I know which jacket to grab.

[Tom Bainbridge]

same as that frenchie, centigrade is simple in human terms

5 degrees is cold to a human, 30 is pretty warm

[dave_k]

Originally Posted by frenchie

I've never, not even in Canada, known anyone in any trade, to use metric.

I have to disagree with that. I haven't seen any metric plans in small residential but in ICI we see a lot of it. I would estimate that about 60% of the commercial jobs I've worked on are metric. I'm very happy to work and think in it. In fact I would get pissed if I had to lay out a concrete job in imperial. Entering fractions into a construction master is too slow if your doing it all day. I'm used to converting to decimal feet for estimating but it still sucks.

The way it works with most jobs the layout is all done in metric but not all material are available in metric so for some portions of the job you have to work in imperial. Doors, cabinets, masonry, red iron, glazing and concrete are all speced and available in metric quantities and I find it easier to work in metric (or at least quantity takeoff and layout).

A good example of where you get into system cross over is concrete. You do your layout and any cutting of plywood panels in metric but because form ply comes in 4x8 sheets, studs, joists and walers are laid out in imperial to fit the sheets. You cut your spreaders in metric to match the layout but you cut your braces to align the forms in imperial because it's familiar. You have to be really careful not to be lax with soft conversions. A 900 x 2150 door looks identical to a 3/0 x 7/0 but anyone who lays out with an imperial tape assuming they are the same thing will get bitten. I got an extra once to cut down 350 doors because someone made an assumption. Half of them were hollow metal with a welded bottom that had to be welded back in after they were cut, body filled and re-painted

[frenchie]

I've only ever worked small resi remodels. That sounds like a bit of a nightmare. Why only 60%? After all these years, I'd have thought the commercial work would have completely switched over? And the materials? Is it because the States are next door? Is it only American stuff?

I can see where working in metric would be really nice for big take-offs. And I do recall it being handy sometimes when the boss sticks you with the new hire as your helper (any fool off the street can understand the little numbers on the tape).

[dave_k]

Originally Posted by frenchie

Why only 60%?

I don't really know. From my experience a lot of retail chains have all their component parts designed in the USA. In Canada you're allowed to submit plans for approval in imperial or metric so there's no point to convert drawings. It would be a real cruel for some poor PM in Texas to have to work in metric because some Canuck wants you to.

Originally Posted by frenchie

And the materials?

Concrete is all in metric units. If you order in PSI or SQ. YDS. You get that long pause on the other end of the line that says you're an idiot and the price just went up. Concrete block, glass, steel sections, cabinets are all sold in either units. Framing lumber, drywall and plywood meant for construction are strictly sold in imperial and I think it's because it's because of the US market. Baltic Birch is only sold in metric (1.5m square) sheets. Domestically manufactured hardwood sheet stock doesn't have to conform to stud spacing so it's whatever they want it to be. Most is made 49" x 97" but you can get it up to 61" x 145" sheets. I've worked with European formwork systems made by Paschal and Peri. They all use 1.5 m square sheets of ply.

Originally Posted by frenchie

Is it only American stuff?

I don't think it makes economic sense to manufacture separate production with specialized machinery for 10% of your market. They made metric plywood briefly in the late 70's but everyone would rather adapt to imperial than pay more for metric.

[Tom Bainbridge]

we also get a cross over point.

the easiest way to understand is a stud wall with ply one and plasterboard the other

ply is 8x4, plasterboard (here) is metric

the metric sheet is ~3/4 inch narrower and ~1-1/2 inch shorter

the commercial and structural answer is we stud at 16 inch for the ply and add additioanal studs to pick up the plasterboard

[Tom Bainbridge]

frenchie

fact is, very few people understand the "small" numbers on a tape (regardless of the tapes being metric or inches)

new guys AND tradesmen come on site knowing a mixture of inches and metric

like somebody said above i cant have dimensions called in "x and 3 small bits"

to avoid confusion i teach them all to work in millimeters only


then of course............. i ask for 2x4s :)

[frenchie]

Originally Posted by Tom Bainbridge

frenchie

fact is, very few people understand the "small" numbers on a tape (regardless of the tapes being metric or inches)

new guys AND tradesmen come on site knowing a mixture of inches and metric

like somebody said above i cant have dimensions called in "x and 3 small bits"

By "little numbers", I was referring to the combination tapes - where you've got fairly big inch numbers on one half, and smaller metric numbers on the other... like this:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/pixmac-previ...sure-macro.jpg

Sometimes, depending on your boss' hiring standards... you really have to dumb things down: and "millimeter" is a big word, to some people. Hence: "the little numbers".

[Tom Bainbridge]

frenchie, now i understand what that guy meant by "x and 3 little numbers"

combination tapes are the norm here, ive always found them a pain to read across

but thats changing because of the huge number of eastern european immigrants who want metric only tapes.

the bigger commercially aware tool shops now stock them as a matter of course, and i dont have to place special orders for them

imperial only tapes here are now almost always american imports