She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

[pablodomingo]

Walking through a home today, I was noticing all the radius corners and asked if they used flex. The person swore that the guy installing wet the material and bent it around the corner, but I've never had luck wetting mdf. The stuff is so full of glue and other chemicals it seems like it isn't absorbent at all. Was she full of it?

[Kent Brobeck]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

Are you kidding or what? If they would wet the mdf enough to bend it around a tight radius it would be laying in a heap like a dog terd. Which is pretty much what it is to start with, I guess.

[Charliehamr]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

Maybe put flex mold in hot water from the heater? I've done that a few times, and the heat increases the flexability tremendously (can even use a bullet heater as long as the molding is far enough away). Word of caution about this though....,The flex is not miracle stuff, and if you try to bend it too far past its limits....It will catastrophically fail at some point in the future. (Not gonna say how I know this)

[CraftsmanCollective]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

Are you kidding or what? If they would wet the mdf enough to bend it around a tight radius it would be laying in a heap like a dog terd. Which is pretty much what it is to start with, I guess.

LOL. Thats funny..and true. But at about 25% the cost of poplar, its becoming a tough sell to move clients up. It sucks but the future of our trade has (at least here in CA) gone to MDF. Hence, my fascination with dust collection..

[Kye GC]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

LOL. Thats funny..and true. But at about 25% the cost of poplar, its becoming a tough sell to move clients up. It sucks but the future of our trade has (at least here in CA) gone to MDF. Hence, my fascination with dust collection..

Not for long:

"California Air Resources Board (CARB) Update

June 15th, 2007

"The Air Resources Board (ARB) is developing an airborne toxics control measure (ATCM) to reduce formaldehyde emissions from composite wood products such as hardwood plywood, particleboard, medium density fiberboard, and also furniture and other finished products with composite wood parts."

"The ARB evaluated formaldehyde exposure in California and found that one of the major sources of exposure is from inhalation of formaldehyde emitted from formaldehyde resin containing composite wood products. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) reclassified formaldehyde from "probably carcinogenic to humans" to "carcinogenic to humans" in 2004, based on the increased risk of nasopharyngeal cancer. Formaldehyde was also designated as a toxic air contaminant (TAC) in California in 1992 with no safe level of exposure. State law requires ARB to take action to reduce human exposure to all TACs"

The California Air Regulatory Board (CARB) voted 8-0 on April 26, 2007 to put in place the country’s tightest formaldehyde emissions limits from composite wood products. Implementation dates for the new ATCM (Air Toxics Control Measure) range from 2009 to 2012, depending on the board product. (See related story) The ATCM specifies a two-phase schedule (P1 and P2), with emissions ceilings and compliance dates for particleboard (PB), MDF, thin MDF and hardwood plywood (veneer-core and composite-core) (HWPW-VC, HWPW-CC). The regulation targets urea formaldehyde (UF), the most used resin for these products. It exempts structural engineered wood products made with lower-emitting adhesives such as phenol formaldehyde. Exempt products include PS 1 plywood, PS 2 structural panels, and ASTM D5055 I-joists. CARB studies estimate that composite wood products account for 5 percent of formaldehyde emissions.

Industry Concerns
Costs, compliance, testing and certification requirements — and the over-arching question of enforcement — are industry concerns as the regulation heads for implementation. The ability to accurately and adequately inspect imported board and finished product is another concern. CARB commissioners directed staff to report back to them next year on the workability of the enforcement measures. CARB technical and enforcement staffers emphasize their long experience with consumer products. At the same time, the new regulation’s requirement of third-party certification is something new in the agency’s regulatory approach.

Testing Concerns
Trade groups and manufacturers emphasize the potential for testing inaccuracies at the low P2 emissions ceilings. In agreement on P1 limits, industry and CARB are just 0.01 ppm apart for P2 particleboard limits and 0.02 ppm apart for MDF. CARB surprised HPVA and its members, Altman says, a few days before the hearing by shifting P2 compliance for HWPW-VC up one year, to 2010 from 2011. The decision was based on talks with overseas and domestic board and resin companies indicating availability of UF alternatives for veneer-core plywood. The emission caps will be telegraphed all along the enforcement chain of custody, from the board manufacturer to finished goods and from distribution to the retail level. Many in the industry feel that CARB didn’t fully consider the complexity of the finished products in writing the regulation. That could leave room for non-compliant products, domestic or imported, to slip through.

CARB staff is now developing language to address modifications made to the rule as a result of the hearing and the preceding talks between industry and the agency. The agency expects to set a mid-summer 15-day public comment period to address these changes. Modifications included clarifications on third-party certifications, and the definition of architectural plywood. A new option was also added for reduced inspections of products that incorporate a chemical that binds to UF and cuts emissions.

California Air Resources Board - www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm "

Kye

[CraftsmanCollective]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

Interesting Kye... thanks for the post. I must look into this further. At the very least, this makes a compelling argument justifing the additional cost of a 'real' wood product.

[CraftsmanCollective]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

I hope this doesn't kill my MDF sales though...

[Kent Brobeck]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

Kye & Craftsman, my crew has discussed mdf many times. What's in the stuff that reduces carbide blades and bits to nothing in no time flat? It can't be good for you to eat that stuff. Is it the next asbestes(spelling)? Fortunately we don't use it very much mosly poplar for paint grade. There is no denying it's cost is a plus for buyers but the profiles are not cleanly cut and don't compare to the real McCoy.

[CraftsmanCollective]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

What's in the stuff that reduces carbide blades and bits to nothing in no time flat?

Resin... and the density of the material itself. MDF is really just super refined particle board. As real wood fibers microscopically are similar to a handul of straws, MDF is glue and wood fibers throughout. The result is a constant abrasion. When I know we're setting up for an all MDF house I set up the saws with 60 or 80 tooth ATB blades (usually Frueds) they seem to last the longest.

There is no denying it's cost is a plus for buyers but the profiles are not cleanly cut and don't compare to the real McCoy.

I couldn't agree more..

[bread and roses]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

Formaldehyde was also designated as a toxic air contaminant (TAC) in California in 1992 with no safe level of exposure. State law requires ARB to take action to reduce human exposure to all TACs"

No safe level of exposure? There is no substance that has NO safe level of exposure. What if someone comes in with a tester that can measure parts per billion? That's ridiculous.

[MSLiechty]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

they can ban MDF entirely.

It would make life easier and put extra money in my pocket. I can't stand the stuff but realize it has it's place. Give me real wood any day.

I will gladly pay more in order to use Poplar in lieu of MDF.

ML

[uncle tucker]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

That’s scary!
When I cut sinks out, I cut 20 or 30 a day. Should I where a respirator? The good thing is schools and hospitals are going to low VOC materials.

[dave_k]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

That’s scary!
When I cut sinks out, I cut 20 or 30 a day. Should I where a respirator? The good thing is schools and hospitals are going to low VOC materials.

A respirator is overkill. I think a dust mask may be in order, if you wear a respirator anyway get dust filters that fit over the carbon filters otherwise you are just clogging up good filters with dust.

Schools and hospitals do often spec formaldehyde free MDF, which is a great thing for us guys who have to work with it. Back in the eighties and early nineties guys use to get asthma symptoms and contact rashes from the stuff. If you use cheap lumber yard MDF you are exposing yourself to formaldehyde and other crap. The wholesale suppliers carry formaldehyde free MDF for about the same as you pay for the lumber yard stuff when you factor in your trade discount. Many cabinetmakers are using formaldehyde free MDF now anyway for obvious reasons, why put everyone at risk when you don't really need to. The dust is still an irritant to the respiratory system regardless, unless I'm using the festool saw I wear glasses and dust mask.

MDF is like concrete, it all looks the same to the consumer but the composition of different MDF products can be tailored to the application.

[Spike!]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

I know a guy here in town that swears by using the wet MDF method. ;)

[trim dandy]

Re: She swore that he wet mdf base and bent it around the tight radius corner

How tight are we talking..? When wrapping radius' depending on the app. usually we would build up (multiple 1/4" sheets) like for free standing spirals.. or curf 3/4" material say 2/3rds or so from back to enable flex.. I'm sure we're not talking bullnose which are mitered..