Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

[swettconstruction]

I'm looking for some advice from framers or drywallers on what I can do to prep my houses for a better drywall job. I always budget a couple of days for my crew to "straight line" the walls after insulation but and it seems to be pretty well prepped but after the drywall goes on, I find high spots and dips in walls that should be perfect. This has happened to me with several different drywall subs so I'm thinking the problem is in the wall prep.

I'm looking for an article or book or export advice that will help me get to straighter walls on my jobs. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Swett

[dgbldr]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

First, decide what is flat enough for you. Do you have a spec that says what's acceptable? If you don't, then make one.

Then, measure a finished wall that doesn't meet your spec. Find the low and high spots and note location. Then tear down the drywawll and measure the framing. That will tell you if it's bad framing or bad drywall.

Now have the framer work to a specified flatness. Or, have another person or crew flatten the framing to the spec. And have someone inspect it. Once you have that routine in place, you tell the drywaller that the framing is flat and you demand drywall flat to within your spec. If the drywaller doesn't accept that the framing is flat, he can conduct his own inspection before he starts.

This is a long way of saying you need to control your process.

[larryh]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

Demanding others do it to a spec is one way. I'll go another route just in case Swett's not a manager, and is looking for techniques on how to actually do it..

Trying to teach it would be a very long post, but I'll try to give a few quick tips..

First of all, do it BEFORE INSULATION! Doing it after is just mean and nasty.

This part goes without saying, it's pretty key to get the plates straight at the plumb and line stage.

When you approach a wall-
1. Get the corners straight from top to bottom first.
2. Next, look at the top and bottom of the entire wall to make sure the studs are flush w/plate, adjust as needed.
3. When those steps are done, you'll have some straight lines to work from, and now you can worry about the field. Plane the high spots first, then fill the low spots.

I use my long level as a straight edge. Short walls just get a straight edge, long walls get a string. Tall walls get two or three stings.
I look at studs horizontally first (to find the bad ones).. and vertically second (to see what the bad one needs, and where), but definitely look both ways.

I left out A LOT of info. The finer techniques involved in plane/fill would require an all day post.

One other thing- This started when I started doing a lot of flush base and reglets, and now it's just part of the process. I look at the bottom of the wall pretty close, so the baseboard is nice and straight. That's one line that's easy to overlook when your doing the job, but easy for everyone to see afterwards. Doesn't usually require much, but a little goes a long ways.

Maybe Sim has a blog article on flattening walls?.. if not, it would be a really good one to do.

[Adam Greisz]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

Most of the time we hire the drywall subcontractor to perform this scope. On our large projects it typically takes 3-4 men two weeks to straighten the walls and ceilings (done after mechanical rough in and before insulation). Typically we are shooting for the studs to be 12% in moisture content at this stage (so that they have already done the majority of their movement). We also have loaded the roofs and weighted the building (we have a lot of stone roofs, walls and decks). Even after the walls and ceilings have been straightened you still need to make sure that the outside corners are put on carefully and the inside corners are not filled heavily.

I communicate to the drywall sub our level of expectation and show them and subsequently their employees the areas that are super critical (crown, base and high levels of natural light). I also show them where paneling and cabinets go so they only fire tape these areas.

By communicating clearly, setting expectations and having them perform their own straightening we get the result required. And in the few times that they do not hit the correct standard you are able to hold their feet to the fire because you have clearly communicated your requirements.

[swettconstruction]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

Thanks dgbldr and larryh,
I really appreciate the input. I'm a gc and have both self performed the framing and subbed it out to framing contractors. In both cases and in just about every project, I've found areas that look sub-par despite the prep. I think the idea of establishing a spec is very good and certainly one that I can take to the drywall sub once I have prepped the frame. Some of what I've seen is related to studs or plates that were not prepped correctly and then some seems to be related to excess mud put into inside corners. I also had fits with the flush baseboard detail a couple of years ago and have steered my clients away from it ever since. I've also seen cases of excessive screw "pop" several months after hanging. I've tried high-end drywallers and budget guys and haven't seen an appreciable difference in the attention to detail.

Is there an industry standard written for proving guidelines to the drywaller? Would +/- 1/16" over 10' be excessively stringent? Is there a spec for how tight the auto drive screw guns should be set so that they get the boards pulled sufficiently tight to the walls?

The job I'm working on now has coffered ceilings in all the bedrooms. These are going to be super critical in terms of a straight line at the corners. I want to help my framers and drywallers get it right the first time so we don't have to re-do anything....

Swett

[Allan Edwards]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

I’ve got to say we do not have a lot of problems with bad framing that result in drywall problems. Have you thought about trying to prevent framing problems from happening in the first place. I know there will be the occasional bowed stud, but those should be caught with a good straight edge or string. We start by using the best stud available, in our market that is a Dough Fir stud. Then, my framer literally sights every stud before use, he culls at least 20% and uses them for blocking, bracing, etc. So the studs used are straight. Then, just to be sure, both framer and drywall sub checks the walls before drywall is installed. We have very few problems. Good framer, good material, visually sight every stud, cull as needed, then double check before drywall, doing all of this should take care of the problem. IF there is a problem encountered during drywall, sub is instructed to alert us.

[Allan Edwards]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

Is there an industry standard written for proving guidelines to the drywaller? Would +/- 1/16" over 10' be excessively stringent? Is there a spec for how tight the auto drive screw guns should be set so that they get the boards pulled sufficiently tight to the walls?

I've had this book for years, it is the "Bible" for drywall in my opinion.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Gypsum-Con.../dp/1118749847

[charles]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

Is there an industry standard written for proving guidelines to the drywaller? Would +/- 1/16" over 10' be excessively stringent?

Swett

I don't know about over 10', but my personal tolerance is for kitchen and bathroom studs to be no more than 1/16" out of line with each other; living and bedrooms can allow 1/8" of variance; and the garage and closets can allow 3/16".

[larryh]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

You probably already use them but if not, dry studs will help a lot.
I get my walls within a 1/16, well most of them, but I think 1/16 is a lot to ask for finished drywall. A butt joint or a corner can't help but be a 1/16, right? I'll have to check out that drywall bible.

[larryh]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

Most of the time we hire the drywall subcontractor to perform this scope.

Learned something new.. I had no idea they would do that.
I'll still trust it to good carpenters any day though. I view it as way too tedious for drywall boys. Did you ever witness a drywall hanger with a power plane?
For me it'll always be a framing item.

[m beezo]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

Adam, what size of house is that that it takes 3 or 4 men 2 weeks to straighten out the walls? I want to know how if everything is built with roof on and loads you can correct some areas. Would seem a couple of blows with a sledge is not going to move the bottom plate

I have never built more than a 1000 sq ft room addition but do not recall stringlineing the walls just before install of drywall. I think it was more at the framing stage, then we pulled the strings and went to work on mechanical and wiring. I am not a big builder but I do think that Allan has a point of good framing being the first place to start.

[dgbldr]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

I think 1/16 is a lot to ask for finished drywall. A butt joint or a corner can't help but be a 1/16, right?

Depends, you need to be careful how you spec it. 1/16" smoothly over 10' is not noticeable, but if you just spec 1/16 over 10', you can have a flat wall with a very small spot bulging out 1/16 and it will stick out like a sore thumb.

There are techniques for doing drywall with zero buildup at corners and butts, but if you need it that flat it's cheaper to just specify a Level 5 and have everything floated.

[LIHR50]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

It's not all on the framer. You can not expect framing with dimensional lumber to be near perfect. If that's what you're looking for then supply the framer with LSL. Otherwise you have to be reasonable with your expectations.

It's really on the GC to ensure each trade does their job. The framer needs to use good lumber and be selective,the drywaller needs to tweak the walls by shimming and planing, then the taper needs to take it to tighter tolerances with mud, and finally the painter makes everybody look good.

There are also critical walls that need more attention than others.

[jimAKAblue]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

Learned something new.. I had no idea they would do that.
I'll still trust it to good carpenters any day though. I view it as way too tedious for drywall boys. Did you ever witness a drywall hanger with a power plane?
For me it'll always be a framing item.

Back in the day, I often saw the drywallers use power planes.

[Scott Jameson]

Re: Pre-Drywall Prep on Framing

"... it takes 3 or 4 men 2 weeks to straighten out the walls ...'

Would steel framing mat'l be more cost effective than 250 - 300 mhrs labor?