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  1. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    4,828

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Lanya LaPunta View Post
    Good bloody grief.

    The geezees are the absolute worst. If we know they are geezees, we won't even bid the job. If we win (because we didn't know that they were geezies) .. when we find out ... we will not do the work.

    And, your comments are coming from someone that slams Asians (who ALWAYS pay) ... you are hopeless.

    By the way, it is "espresso" not "expresso" [SIC)
    I guess you lost me.
    "First we finish the game, then we’ll deal with the Armada!"

    Sir Frances Drake

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    St Louis, Mo for the past 25 years
    Posts
    7,570

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    Seems to me that it is a lot about climate. I have not been to a lot of places, never overseas. But I can tell you in parts of Colorado you could do without AC but never without a heater. You would have a few days or weeks being uncomfortable with the heat but it often cools down enough at night to let you sleep.
    In New Orleans you could get by without a heater except for a few weeks a year but would probably not want to be without AC.
    In either of those climates you could say don't insulate or seal up the house and you would either be uncomfortable more of the time or would pay more for energy costs.

    The other thing with the climate is what you get used to. I have been in New Orleans and seen folks eating outside and seeming to enjoy it when it is 90 with 90% humidity. A person from the dry areas of Vegas or New Mexico would be dying from the humidity and heat combination but could live in their area with 115 heat and 15% humidity. I have been in San Diego and seen folks wearing coats and gloves in the 65 degree weather that I would consider wearing shorts and short sleeves in.

    The other issue for me in insulating a house is a simple example of your cold drink that you want to stay cool or a hot drink you want to stay hot. What works better for either one? A styrofoam cup or some sort of insulated cup. Pretty simple that it works even tho a house is much more complicated.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    upstate NY
    Posts
    1,761

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted S. View Post
    Let's throw a real good myth out there:

    Spray foam doesn't save energy any more that any other insulation. I can do the same, if not better with fiberglass or cellulose. All day long.

    Judge me by infiltration an overall UA - not by some opinion formulated by reading blogs.
    Are you talking about observed overall UA or calculated overall UA?

    There is no way a balloon with fiberglass glued to the outside of it would perform as well as a balloon with foam sprayed to the outside of it, if you put it in the wind. Even though they would give you the same blower door test results and you could match the r-values.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    4,828

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    Wow, now I'm a Asian hater that promotes exterior foam.

    WTF?
    "First we finish the game, then we’ll deal with the Armada!"

    Sir Frances Drake

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    upstate NY
    Posts
    1,761

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted S. View Post
    Wow, now I'm a Asian hater that promotes exterior foam.

    WTF?
    Pity the Asian who encounters you, if you identify them as trailer dwellers.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    upstate NY
    Posts
    1,761

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    double post time out

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Martinez, California
    Posts
    14,988

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    Oregon, home of the most violent of the Green Hippie organizations is seeing through the myths:

    Quote Originally Posted by Oregon Live
    Oregon's utility regulators are struggling to determine whether ratepayers should continue to subsidize some of the most common and popular home weatherization measures, even when those measures are no longer considered cost effective for homeowners.

    But the fact is, strictly from an energy savings standpoint, most forms of insulation and air sealing don't pencil out as a good investment for owners of existing homes heated with natural gas. The payback simply isn't there. In many cases, it's not even close.

    The nonprofit Energy Trust of Oregon, which funds rebates for conservation and efficiency measures from a monthly surcharge on customers' gas and electric bills, determined two years ago that the weatherization measures in existing homes weren't meeting the cost-effectiveness test. Its evaluations showed that energy savings were lower than expected and costs were higher. Low gas prices were also reducing its forecast of avoided costs.

    Fundamentally, the rules demand that the benefits, in the form of avoided costs from energy savings over the life of a specific measure – say 45 years for insulation - exceed its total cost.

    It's a controversial question, as the value of home weatherization is part of the region's energy orthodoxy, a bedrock assumption that has been drilled into Oregon consumers for three decades, heavily supported by ratepayer investments, and backed by an army of contractors who don't want to see the programs dismantled at a time of historically low gas prices.

    But in a recent filing with the PUC, the Energy Trust identified about two dozen efficiency measures that no longer meet its total cost benefit test in gas-heated homes. They included the mainstays of most home energy retrofits, like wall, floor and ceiling insulation, duct sealing and whole home air sealing. Last year, the gas portion of ETO's existing homes program as a whole didn't pass the cost-effectiveness test.¹
    I found this link on an appraisers' site, one had gone to a conference on the issue, two appraisers' comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by Appraisers' forum
    So the rate payers pick up the ever increasing bill because the greenies just "know" the returns are magically better. Yep that's how you save energy, by making it less affordable. 'We're a public utility and were here to help you.'²
    And:

    Quote Originally Posted by Appraisers' Forum
    The "green" agenda is driven by ideology, junk science and global warming.²
    People here have dismissed my experiences as occurring in a moderate climate, now it appears that people are awakening in Ohio and Oregon, not so moderate climates, maybe because many of the participants here are members of the quoted "army of contractors who don't want to see the programs dismantled"? Who the Hell wants to wait for a 45 year payback, especially when experiences are showing that the sealed-up insulated buildings are rotting out in less than 30 years?


    ¹ http://www.oregonlive.com/business/i...ates_in_p.html

    ² http://appraisersforum.com/showthread.php?t=202747
    “It is not an endlessly expanding list of rights —the “right” to an education; the “right” to health care; the “right” to food and housing. That is not freedom. That is dependency. Those are not rights. Those are the rations of slavery – hay and a barn for human cattle.” - Alexis de Tocqueville

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    midwestish
    Posts
    7,344

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Seibert View Post
    Oregon, home of the most violent of the Green Hippie organizations...people are awakening in Ohio and Oregon, not so moderate climates...
    Pseudo-hyperbole of the week winner, a bit like Dr Steinmetz saying, at first, he went to Sky Harbor simply to get a cup of joe. Obviously a few bubble months, or years, puts all that investment back to the win side and the world will be re-righted....

    Head over to Stockton or Red Bluff and calibrate that moderate climate theory. The other day when it it was 103 to 106° all the way up to the state of Jefferson, it was a balmy 55° here just a bit west and north. But then a drunk considers only four shots moderation and Putin considers himself moderate (conservative too...).
    “I find the curiosity of our men with respect to this animal is pretty much satisfied.”
    ~ Meriwether Lewis

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Martinez, California
    Posts
    14,988

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    Pseudo-hyperbole of the week winner?

    It can get so cold up there that the Hippies have to smoke 6 joints to shovel the snow before they go out and spike trees, burn down homes and Hummers.
    “It is not an endlessly expanding list of rights —the “right” to an education; the “right” to health care; the “right” to food and housing. That is not freedom. That is dependency. Those are not rights. Those are the rations of slavery – hay and a barn for human cattle.” - Alexis de Tocqueville

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    midwestish
    Posts
    7,344

    Default Re: JLC Magazine Energy Myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Seibert View Post
    Pseudo-hyperbole of the week winner?
    Yes. Doesn't mean you can't try to win again, and again.... and again. Twitter? Why not linkedin, they're giving out money this week.
    “I find the curiosity of our men with respect to this animal is pretty much satisfied.”
    ~ Meriwether Lewis

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