Banish These Details From Your Plans

[Allan Edwards]

Not sure I agree about the use of brick, I find it easier to detail than stucco. And surprised stucco wasn't on his list.

Brick veneer. Brick cladding is durable, low-maintenance, and attractive. Traditionally, however, bricks were not intended as a facing for structural wood framing. The idea of marrying masonry cladding to structural wood framing is a relatively recent development, and it is fraught with problems.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...ils-your-plans

[dgbldr]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

Brick is predominant around here and there are no problems of any kind. Even though no houses had weep holes until very recently. It is a naturally rainscreen setup and I have yet to see a house with problems due to brick veneer, even when done badly.

Recent development? Is 150 years recent?

That paragraph is preposterous.

[J.Buesking]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

I agree that brick is pretty much bulletproof and is predominant around here.

[frenchie]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

Recent development? Is 150 years recent?

Considering people have been using bricks since the Greeks...

[calvert]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

I agree that brick is pretty much bulletproof and is predominant around here.

It is pretty much bulletproof but I have seen some massive failures where brick, inappropriate for a northern climate and not detailed properly, was more than a catastrophic failure, primarily in commercial work.

[Allan Edwards]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

I am surprised chimneys did not make his list.

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

I have to agree with Martin that neither brick, stone, now stucco should be put on a sealed up building. I recently sealed up an area under a building with Perm-A-Barrier 2487.jpg, because of the pyramidal slope I wanted a waterproof membrane behind 8" thick rock with a 2" gap behind it, the inspector allowed me to do it after convincing him that because of the angle nobody could ever put a room under there without allowing plenty of room to breathe, he first demanded that it be permeable.

Ways that it can be done are to use 1x8 sheathing with gaps between the boards, install no sheathing using Hardy Frames or a full steel frame for bracing, or put the sheathing on the interior of the walls. I'm rushing two houses through engineering to file Monday since on Tuesday we have new 2013 Energy and Green Codes going into effect (after being postponed for 6 months because nobody knew what they meant), I am putting plywood sheathing on them by putting the sheathing on the interior behind the drywall. Brick and stone veneers as well as stucco worked fine before we started sealing up walls.

That Perm-A-Barrier is the old non-permeable version, Grace has come out with a new Perma-A-Barrier VP that is permeable, I have my doubts because permeable does not equal breathable, I guess the inspectors will accept or refuse it based upon individual preferences since none of these products comply with the prescriptive code and must be approved as an alternate material or method at the discretion do the CBO.

[Allan Edwards]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

Dick from a viewpoint of water penetration and perhaps even energy efficiency brick and stone is the best cladding because of the separation gap, in my opinion. Lstiburk does point out the vapor drive issue after a long rain when the masonry becomes saturated with water.

[dgbldr]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

the masonry becomes saturated with water.

SOME masonry becomes saturated. Some bricks absorb water, some don't. You can seal or paint the brick if you don't want water absorption. In most cases it's irrelevant because there is no vapor drive. The back of the brick is ventilated.

[Allan Edwards]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

SOME masonry becomes saturated.

Excuse me. 99% of new homes built with stone or brick become saturated in long, heavy rains.

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

Excuse me. 99% of new homes built with stone or brick become saturated in long, heavy rains.

Brick is supposed to get saturated when it gets wet, sealing or painting it leads to all kinds of problems since it prevents it from drying-out when it eventually, inevitably, gets wet, if there is a small leak and the brick is sealed the paint/sealer forces it to dry-in which still shouldn't cause problems if there are open weeps at the base and the mason has left gobs of mortar in the drainage plane, but homeowners/landscapers constantly place dirt over the weeps slowing the drainage. One solution is to pour the brick ledge well above any future grades but people don't like the looks of concrete there, and on the hillsides that I build on it becomes impossible on slopes unless you held it really high.

My next job with brick/stone I am going to try Grace's new Perm-A-Barrier VP, if I ever get another pyramid I'll stick with the old Perm-A-Barrier (of course with a pyramid like that above there is 2' of ventilated area behind it).

Another point, brick, stone, and stucco are the ideal exterior claddings since they never have to be maintained, painting/sealing stucco is worse than painting/sealing brick since you clog the pores in the stucco stopping it from breathing. I tell all customers: "Never, ever, let a painter talk you into painting your brick or stucco, if they get dirty just pressure wash them and they come out looking like new, if you want to change the color of the stucco call me and I'll give you the name of a good plasterer and he'll put another color coat on it."

A CBO once asked me to address a luncheon meeting of building officials about the problems of painting stucco, all agreed that it was a bad practice but in the end they decided that there was nothing they could do about it, on new homes yes they can stop it, but on existing homes they would have to require permits for repainting homes and they all thought the public would revolt if they made them get permits to repaint.

[Allan Edwards]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

Dick

I have painted dozens of stucco homes in the last 20-25 years, and of course I am in a hot-humid, fairly wet climate. Never had one call back or problem or know of any because they are painted. Poor flashing detail, yes, but not because of being painted.

[Ted S.]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

2" cavity, keep the mortar droppings out, the right wall ties, good flashings, weeps, WRB... I'll take that over a lot of sidings these days even over wood framing. In fact I'd take plywood over the densglass and metal studs in some cases. Any issues you'll find I think would be from poor workmanship.

I know the argument well about reverse vapor drive but seriously, that's more of a building science "Look what I can do with WUFI" then an actual problem.

[dgbldr]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

Excuse me. 99% of new homes built with stone or brick become saturated in long, heavy rains.

You are excused. Non-permeable brick has been available for at least 100 years. My parents' 1916 house had it. You can use it or not, that's up to you. Same for stone.

[dgbldr]

Re: Banish These Details From Your Plans

Brick is supposed to get saturated when it gets wet, sealing or painting it leads to all kinds of problems...

Dick, I believe you are wrong on all counts. At least in my climate, hot/humid summers and cold/dry winters.

I have yet to see a house around here built before 1990 with brick weeps. And I have yet to see a house with problems attributable to it. Not saying it's a good idea, but it's seldom if ever an issue.

Same for painting brick. In fact my own house is brick, built in the 60s with no weeps. Painted in 2000. No issues either before or after painting. And the paint is holding up fine, I estimate getting at least 35 years before I have to repaint. Yes, I did it well and used good paint.