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  1. #16

    Default Re: Construction Master and unequal pitch

    Ha! that's a good idea. The guys I work with would have a cow if I told them to start in the valleys and work out but I see how it could be worth doing. The fact you're cutting three sheets at once makes up for the extra break cut you have to do. I'm going to see how receptive they are.

    We've always just added the difference to the shot point 36 7/8" for a 10 pitch for example, to whatever your short point break is. We've been seeing a lot of home depot 5 ply 1/2" and it has an up side (supposedly) so you can't flip it over. Personally I think the stuff is junk and delaminates after two wettings no matter which side is up.

    Thanks again. I'm going to get used to the memory functions so I can trust what they give me. I like the idea of not having a 70 dollar calculator in my pouch getting beat on.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    741

    Default Re: Construction Master and unequal pitch

    Quote Originally Posted by jimAKAblue View Post
    I've never used a "plan view ratio". Where is this ratio used or needed?

    jimAKA,

    I can't believe you haven't used a Plan-View . . . ratios . . angles,,, for anything in your framing career! I'll bite. You are kidding? Different term for it? Trusses?

    Plan-View Ratios, Pitch/Pitch, are good for many aspects of the fine art of Roof Cutting. The CMC's can be manipulated to solve; Effective Run of the Irregular Pitch; Footprints of H/V Rafters, and the adjusted o.c. spacing that is used (preference setting for o.c. spacing) to step-off the Jack Lengths; determine the cheek bevel angles for the H/V's and Jacks too. Sheathing differences, as demonstrated above.

    For instance, P-V ratios used to find cheek-cut bevels for a 7/12 Vs. 10/12 Irregular Pitch Roof. Use the Framing square on a ply sheet edge, mark a 7 / 10 right triangle, read the bevel degree angles with a speed square or transfer w/ sliding-bevel square. Use a similar process to locate the H/V footprint and acquire Jack Length adjustments for the adjacent Pitches.

    You might not like the CMCs, but I get good results with mine and yes, they should be cheaper, but I protect it well, the user tutorials aren't great for roof cutters. I do like them for on-site calcs, feet and inch readouts.
    One Length Method© by Richard Birch

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Sterling Heights, MI
    Posts
    4,574

    Default Re: Construction Master and unequal pitch

    Richard, I wasn't exactly sure of what you meant by plan view ratios. I now understand that it's the angles created by the hip when viewed from above. Remember, no question is a stupid question....

    Quite frankly, I must have laid my square down to determine a plan view angle at some point in my career but I honestly don't remember ever doing that. I suppose it's because we rarely encounter any house that requires us to cut the entire roof package. The only builders in our area that don't use trusses are the bottom feeders that pay so little that we refuse to do any work for them in any capacity.

    However we do have to cut and install conventional framing on some portions of every roof that we do. And, since most of our roofs are unequal pitches (they have been unequal pitched since the mid 80's), I've evidently figured out how to cut the bevels on the jacks without resorting to measuring the planview ratios. I do them all by eye and I typically don't bother to set the bevel adjustment on my saw. I usually get a nice fit on the first cut, but sometimes I have to take two cuts to adjust "my minds eye". I do like the cuts to fit nice, even though, like you mentioned in the octagon thread, bevels don't need to be done where jacks meet the hips. I'm just old school there.

    Its obvious that we frame in two parallel universes because I've never needed, nor desire most of the CM functions that you speak of. I don't recall ever doing a house with open eaves. I've never used a speed square or sliding bevel square. For sure, if I was cutting full house roof packages, I'd probably be more in tune with some of the things that are dear to you. And I don't doubt that you get good use from your CMCs. I'd probably have cracked it's code too if I was whacking and stacking entire roofs. I just haven't ever had a need for any of it's functions. Mine sat in my truck for 15 years and when I pulled it out to try some of the things I read in here...the battery was dead LOL!

    I have used the CM for squaring our basement wall sill plates...but then I arrived at simpler solutions for the conditions that we encounter.

    With all that said, I'd like you to know that I appreciate your sharing of your in depth, real world knowledge of roof systems and the tools that you use to do your work. I'm quite sure that I'd waste an extraordinary amount of time learning how to properly cut and place a timber framed exposed hip and valley roof system while you just danced through it. My hats are off to you and the likes of Sim and many others.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Sterling Heights, MI
    Posts
    4,574

    Default Re: Construction Master and unequal pitch

    Quote Originally Posted by DFabris View Post
    Ha! that's a good idea. The guys I work with would have a cow if I told them to start in the valleys and work out but I see how it could be worth doing. The fact you're cutting three sheets at once makes up for the extra break cut you have to do. I'm going to see how receptive they are.
    Actually, while I stumbled upon the idea of working from the valley out, it's not really anything too earth shattering. Surprisingly, I think I'm the only one that I've ever known to do that. Even the young birds that I've taught seem to forget the reasons why it's beneficial. I see them resorting back to their own "comfortable" ways all too often.

    The concept of working outward from difficult areas is one that applies in all phases of construction. I use to my advantage all over the house starting at the sill plate and carrying it through to the roof. It also applies in the finishing trades from flooring, to trim and millwork too.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    741

    Default Re: Construction Master and unequal pitch

    Quote Originally Posted by jimAKAblue View Post
    Actually, while I stumbled upon the idea of working from the valley out, it's not really anything too earth shattering. Surprisingly, I think I'm the only one that I've ever known to do that. Even the young birds that I've taught seem to forget the reasons why it's beneficial. I see them resorting back to their own "comfortable" ways all too often.

    The concept of working outward from difficult areas is one that applies in all phases of construction. I use to my advantage all over the house starting at the sill plate and carrying it through to the roof. It also applies in the finishing trades from flooring, to trim and millwork too.

    Jim,

    Slap and Lap decking from the valley is an old technique. I liked it when I was young and could fly over the roof. OSB, 24" centers, H-clips, not as friendly as ply and no clips. So I'll start in the field and break 4' o.c. from course to course.

    Btw, If you know the H/V offset difference for your Sheathing and plan on breaking at 4' centers, subtract the diff from 4' and stagger the gang cuts by it and you'll use the sheathing a little more efficiently than just cutting a bunch of corners off a stack of decking. I think S & L on 16" o.c. rafter spacing where clips aren't needed is still easy. OSB doesn't really perform as well as ply decking (flatness)and 2' laps can be dippy/wavy, and It really needs the 4' counter lap to help flatten it out. I'm probably a little anal about that, but with so many standing seam metal roofs, flat really helps.

    I think our parallel universes are closer than you imagine. =)
    One Length Method© by Richard Birch

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Sterling Heights, MI
    Posts
    4,574

    Default Re: Construction Master and unequal pitch

    Slap and lap....thats a perfect term. I've been using that technique on all wall sheathing since the 70's. Still do it that way. I dont need a tape, or chalkline to sheath walls, or roofs.

    Like you, I don't slap and lap on the roofs anymore because of the required clips. On the roof, I simply eyeball the cut after I slap the valley sheet in. I have been known to blow a cut and have to recut but that's rare on a roof.

    I don't think I can get more efficient when I gang cut my stack but I'll certainly analyse your suggestion and give it a go. When I precut the stack I don't whack a corner off the stack. I run my diagonal cut right through the center of the ply sheet. This yields two "starters" of equal size. Typically, when I lay them, they sufficiently stagger the joints efficiently. So, when I cut the overhanging waste off the "slappers", it typically adds up to less than 24". At most, if the stars align, I might waste one, 2' cutoff, for each sheet that I cut in half. I'll take a close look the next time I lay one.

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