Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

[squarelev]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

Re using 2x12 for risers:

Consider buying KD material if you use dimension lumber. It is apparent from the stair builders' comments that they are somewhat concerned about framing dimensions.

Lumber shrinks. If the design is such that each step is supported on its own posts-whether 2x4 or mfg stud material-then there will be no cumulative shrinking. The only shrinking that might have an effect would be from the top and bottom risers. Probably an eighth to 3/16ths of an inch. That would mean that the bottom tread would be that amount less above the finish floor. And that the top tread would be that amount lower than the second floor--unless the second floor framing also shrunk the same amount.

This is an amount "out" that finish stair builders should be able to handle. And is within code requirements.

Within the rest of the stair, if all the risers shrink equally, then there is no code concern about the relationship of each nose to the next because if they all shrink the same, then the relationship of nose to nose stays the same.

If the design were such that each step rested on the one below... Well the cumulative shrinking in such a setup is probably why you never see that.

Once when I was younger, a carpenter/contractor who I had worked for, and learned finish work from, took me on a tour of a home he was building. It was almost a year from when the stairs had been roughed in and he had his men getting ready to install the finish treads and risers. (This was just a regular straight flight stairs.)

He showed me with a level that all the points of the cut stair jacks had shrunk so that they were about a quarter inch out of level and out of plumb. That is-the nose side of the tread would be a quarter inch lower than the back end of the tread. And the top of each riser would be about a quarter inch "backwards" out of plumb.

This is the same sort of shrinkage that happens to picture frame casing around doors and windows when the casing material shrinks-it opens up on the inside of the joint.

He actually had his men using cedar door shims to shim every level cut on all 3 stair jacks so that the treads would sit level. It's been a number of years-I do not remember if they were shimming the risers too or not.

Bear in mind--this was an architect drawn custom home for wealthy people. This is not at all the sort of thing you would do on a tract home, a McMansion, or even on most upper end spec homes.

He was good enough that there is no question in my mind that when those stair jacks were cut they were cut right on. He would have explained/shown what he wanted to his crew --and if they couldn't do what he wanted they would have been let go. It was all shrinkage.

This shrinkage issue may be why one of the earlier comments suggested not using dimensional material?

Ward

[Baldwin]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

To make it clear, construction grade lumber should never be used in any part of finished stair construction.

Framing lumber (as we all know) can be pea-green, soaking wet or bone dry. In the morning it's on a tuck en-route and covered with snow and by afternoon, baked brittle by an Arizona Sun. At best its moisture content is 19% while finish materials are 7-9%.

To simply say that it's "dimensionally unstable" would be a gross understatement. Construction lumber can check, crack, slit, warp, twist, be running with sap or riddled with bugs. It's either curved, crowned or both, full of knots and sometimes laced with mold or fungus.

Of course these boards are also the "bread and butter" of every framing carpenter so I should say no more (after one last comment).

As far as I'm concerned, it's not possible to guarantee a squeak-less, finished stair which has been constructed over a lumber-built sub-stair. It's better to knock it down and start over.

[dave_k]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

Dick, Ed and Ollie have already said a few things. Here's a few more...

As a professional, finish stair builder, my job often begins with a complete demolition of the rough framed stair. As a general rule, nothing the framing carpenter has done is either right or acceptable (and overlaying a rough stair with finished stair materials was never a good idea).

Since (as you've stated) "I've got no info regarding finished materials", your chances of getting it right (in my opinion) are reduced to zero. Matching finish materials on the 1st floor, stairs, landing and 2nd floor (as you've been told) is highly unlikely. Hardwood treads are typically one inch while flooring and tile are 3/8"

I understand your dismissal of all of this (since it's not your job) but that won't do me any favors. Of course it's not your fault, it's the architects' responsibility to provide both rough and finish carpenters with all the details. (They typically don't and when they do, they get it wrong anyway).

I can't figure out why some regions have framers building a rough stair and trim carpenters polishing the turd.

If I was a framer and the stairs were in my contract, I would get a stair builder to build it. They can kick my ass on price and productivity any day of the week. If they really want a framer to do the work, why doesn't the framer get a pro to build it, mark it up and sell it to the builder?

If architects and builders still want to pay to get a trimmer to cover it over badly rather than get the stair builder to do it properly for less money it's their nickel. At least as a framer you can make a buck out of it on your end.

No disrespect to trimmers and framers doing this work, but surely in the internet age the builders would figure this out.

[jimAKAblue]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

I can't figure out why some regions have framers building a rough stair and trim carpenters polishing the turd.

No disrespect to trimmers and framers doing this work, but surely in the internet age the builders would figure this out.

I recently (about 2 months ago), read an article about the increased building activity and the ensuing shortage of skilled labor. The article is non germane to this topic, but one of the comments by the readers made me chuckle. I'm paraphrasing, but this is what the commentaterer said: "I have been a project manager/general contractor for (X) number of years and I have had substantial experience in (6 different states) in all the corners of the country. One of my observations is the worst carpenter that I've encountered in Michigan was better than the best carpenters that I've ever met in any of those other states/regions!"

If that commentator's history and testimony are anywhere near reality than maybe it explains how you, and the other commentators (who think that only "stairmen" can build a rough horse) have arrived at their conclusions.

I'd take a stab at debating the topic if the posts were written with the intent to offer something worthwhile to discuss to this thread. I'd probably lead off with a "...if you'll pull your head out of your caboose, you might notice that you are sitting on a tall horse..."; but, I think I'll pass.Instead, I'll just enjoy the chuckle, knowing that if y'all are anything like the many trimmers I've encountered, you'd spend so many days trying to get our "turd" set unbuilt that the builders would run you out of the sub.

Up to now, I've never heard a trimmer whine and say he needs to tear out the entire rough structure, but if he climbed mine and told me he needed to rip them all out, I'd tell him "have fun!". After I build them, I don't care what y'all do with them ;)!

[jimAKAblue]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

If I was a framer and the stairs were in my contract, I would get a stair builder to build it. They can kick my ass on price and productivity any day of the week.

...but surely in the internet age the builders would figure this out...

Maybe you should think about upgrading your productivity. I'm not sure how you can do that, if you've already been in the trades more than five years. I'd guess that at this point in your career, you probably aren't going to get any better if you have been doing the same thing year after year and haven't improved. Maybe there's some productivity training CDs (or video clips) that you can study up on.

I'm just curious how much you think a framer could make, by subbing out the rough frame stair building component of a rough set of stairs. Most framers here factor in 8 hrs labor for a circular set and most good framers around here will get them done in 6+/-, your mileage may vary. So, how much faster will these "stair builders" do it? Can they get it done in 4 hours? If not, I don't even want to be bothered trying to co-ordinate the schedules. I need them stairs to be finished at the same time that the 1st floor walls and partitions are done because I want to walk up them to install the 2nd floor joist!

Surely in this internet age, you know that we roughers climb stairs instead of ladders to frame a house, don't you?!!!!!

[jimAKAblue]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

To the recent posters to this thread: thanks for the laffs. I will admit, there are a few tidbits in your condescending posts, but mostly, I found them funny. (and somewhat embarrassing for you).

[markhoni]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

Jim, I'm with you on this. I don't care how good the framing carpenter is that rough frames an odd shaped set of stairs, be it winders, circular, helical or whatever. It 100% of the time winds up being a frigging nightmare for the finish stair man. Like you said, it usually is better to start with a complete demolition of the stairs. The funny thing about it is that the same carpenter that created that nightmare, is the one that will stand face to face with the finish man that has spent many years zeroing in on the perfection of his trade and tell him, "finish work isn't hard at all. I've done some of it, and it's real easy."

[Baldwin]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

I certainly meant no disrespect to the framing carpenter (wherever he/she hails from.) I've been one myself for some years and totally understand the need and building-code requirement, to provide access to the construction of the 2nd floor via a stairway (not a ladder).

I should like to suggest then, that it's entirely possible to have finished stairs on the job-site, wrapped and covered in protective materials and ready to set in place. Covered as they are, they are intended to be used during the construction phase. All the builder has to do is plan ahead and order them. This is positively the best way all around and I trust most of you would agree. (There's just no way a rough carpenter can build anything comparable to a factory unit.)

If this isn't possible then the second-best choice would be for the framing carpenter to go ahead and build his (6 hour) stair. "Go ahead, get-er-done", but with the clear understanding that this should be a "temporary access stair" (so ease-up on the Ramset please). This approach should never be considered a waste of time or money but just another way to "get-er-done right".

I'd like to point out however, that the building of "finished or permanent stairs" (traditionally and historically) was never part of a rough carpenters assigned duties. Even among finished carpenters, stair building like cabinetry, was (and is) considered a separate branch of the building trade.

Honestly, as a finish carpenter and stair-builder, I consider a permanently affixed, rough framed stair, to be a bit of an "affront and encroachment" into my job and work space. It's made my job more difficult and unnecessarily so.

I've said it before...the "Brotherhood of Carpenters" should act more like brothers on some of this stuff and work together (with all due respect).

[markhoni]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

I agree completely with you Jim. I was in no way trying to blight any framing carpenter by my remarks. Just pointing out that they and we both face our own set of challenges in each line of work. It is unfortunate that a contractor will think that he can save a lot of money by having the framer build a set of steps that should be handled completely by a stair man. All that does is make it harder for the tradesman to make a living.
It behooves each and every one of us to try to understand how our work affects the next guy.

[solidrock1]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

Here are a few sets I have framed in the past. Never had trouble with shrinkage. Followed the methodology in Will Holladay's excellent book A Roof Cutter's Secrets



DCP_1540.jpgDCP_3040.jpgDCP_1610.jpg

[Lavrans]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

I dunno.
I can frame a stair as well as any shop. Of course, in doing so it would be done just like a shop stair. I do think that a shop built stair is better and, often, cheaper than site-built. It all depends on what's been contracted and decided upstream.

What Jim is dealing with is a contract where the decision has already been made, and the price has already been split. For him to sub out the stairs he'd have to go to the trim carpenter who's already been hired to do the trim, with the stairs being part of that, and convince him to release that part of his bid, and then convince the GC/Developer/whoever that they should do that.

Better? Sure. Logistically plausible? Not always.

I can build a set of stairs that can be used for access in a couple of hours, so that's not really a concern. Tack that on, and it's still cheaper than all site-built curved stairs, but if I have to convince 3-4 separate parties of that, it might just not be worth my time and effort.

[rustynail]

Re: Circular stairs: what is your favorite arrangement?

I have built most every kind of rough stair you can imagine, and many times on the more complicated sets I have suggested a shop should build them, and every time the answer comes back "way to expensive" so I get paid to learn how to figure it out, never had a complaint, never had one "ripped out" I use all engineered material, lvl,
1-1/8" ply for stringers and risers, laminated 1/4" ply for curved flying stringers, #1 kd df studs for stud based curved, glue and screws, never start till I know all finish materials, just my 2 cents I thought I'd throw in