anyone doing solar panels, wind generators and related stuff

[kfc510]

He provided a link that had a chart and stated there were [?]611 cases since 1993. Do you really need more detail to show how Google has been eclipsed and the insul removers are about to overtake Apple and Exxon?

Actually, I am vaguely concerned about the spread of Hantavirus as a general thing. Given the reality of global warming, all kinds of diseases that were considered "Southern" will be heading our way.

But somehow I doubt the 70-odd tent cabins in Yosemite provided a measurable stimulus to the insulation-removal industry...

Just to be sure, whenever Dick says some dubious thing I google it to see if there are any (even laughable) sources for what he's saying. Like, is he getting it from Glenn Beck, or is he actually coming up with this stuff on his own? Usually I'm convinced he's trolling us, but I'm never quite sure. He seems too smart to say half of what he says...

I don't know, I've been busted for P.U.I. before, we all say crazy things.

[Catspaw]

Getting back to the original topic, few people seem to be considering the fact that you can't supply the electric grid with large amounts of variable, intermittent power from sources like solar and wind without creating problems. Unless someone comes up with a magic solution to store that power for when it's needed, there is a limit to how much the system can accept.

Ask anyone with an off the grid solar system and they will tell you that it's all about storage.

The second article in this link has some more insight:

http://www.vermontelectric.coop/cont...13%20FINAL.pdf

- Rich

[kfc510]

Getting back to the original topic, few people seem to be considering the fact that you can't supply the electric grid with large amounts of variable, intermittent power from sources like solar and wind without creating problems. Unless someone comes up with a magic solution to store that power for when it's needed, there is a limit to how much the system can accept.

- Rich

Yes, if you want to watch Archer at 10 p.m. you're going to need batteries or a grid hook-up.

But the general need for electricity is highest when solar is cranking out the most watts- mid-day on sunny days. So (as long as you have a grid hook-up) it works out quite nicely. Sure beats firing up the old peaker plants to keep the brownouts at bay.

[parkwest]

Would it be too easy to run most of the house off a couple of forklift batteries and trickle charge those batteries with a solar battery charger and use a diesel generator for high load needs or cloudy periods, if you wanted to be completely off the grid?

[MarkMc]

Ask anyone with an off the grid solar system and they will tell you that it's all about storage.

And moderating one's use/need/consumption {aka in the Dickshoinary, dammed communism!}.

[MarkMc]

Actually, I am vaguely concerned...

Why be vague, get a pet snake [or three] today... and some booster shots, with fluoride!

[kfc510]

Would it be too easy to run most of the house off a couple of forklift batteries and trickle charge those batteries with a solar battery charger and use a diesel generator for high load needs or cloudy periods, if you wanted to be completely off the grid?

The one big off-the-grid place I saw had a small (10'x12'?) separate outbuilding just to house the batteries, transformers, etc. They had shelves and shelves of golf-cart batteries.

(In addition to a passive solar design, load-reducing strategies like daylighting and deciduous plantings, etc.)

[davenorthup]

I rarely jump in this place any more; but since some asked about off the grid I figured I would give some experiences.

We have quite a bit of experience with 100% off the grid systems. We usually use solar for small systems. A small cabin generally requires about 6-10 heavy duty batteries and a few small panels. This gives basic power needs for lighting (yes LED) and communications charging / laptop. Most places we have been to have propane fridges.

The system described above can run almost 30 days w/o solar input if needed.

Larger outfits have about 500 Square feet of panel and run a diesel back up as Park mentions. Their battery bank is a little bigger and remember the diesel back up can run the house and charge the batteries simultaneously.

One lodge we are familiar with ran just diesel while his neighboring lodge ran wind and solar. The diesel only lodge ran the generator 2x a day for about 4 hours when they had a full lodge (24 people). The other lodge hardly ever ran the generator, once or twice a week if that. I suspect the one lodge spent close to $15K per season on diesel, so you can see a much faster payback.

On the grid renewable energy is completely different. It should be designed to supplement grid power, balance the loads allowing generation plants to run more efficiently. It also should be designed to smooth out peak load times; which are generally during high solar input times.

It is a fallacy to discuss on the grid renewable power as needing to replace grid power 100% (saying you need a $70K system). That is a false comparison and of course would rarely ever pencil out on an individuals bill. With peak load pricing, and net metering a house would only need a small system to see some payback.

Also determining payback on today's prices is also a fallacy; as most prices increase (natural gas will to again increase).

Lastly, the fact that some appraisers do not know how to appraise alternative energy systems does not discredit renewable energy; it discredits those appraisers.

[kfc510]

BTW, the 19% thing means that the panels convert 19% of the energy in the sunlight into electricity, not that they "do 19% of what you want them to". There's a lot of energy in sunlight. SunPower apparently has 20% panels now too.

For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_nuvPKIi8

[m beezo]

dave, glad to see you give us some insight into what you do up there. I wish you would reconsider and join in a bit more often. I miss your constructions insights. If anyone should know how to make a house more energy effiecient I think it would be you guys.

Am I getting it right, that the 6 to 10 batteries will power a house for 30 days. Right now I can sure think of most of us would have to alter our living and lighting issues. And you mentione a propane fridge. Those require not electricity at all, don't they have to have an ignitor? Of course that would be only occassional use.

What about wind power up there? Seems that many of the shows I have seen about Alaska they talk about the wind. Maybe it is just like here, windy one day or two and then calm enough to not turn a generator.

[davenorthup]

THX Mark -

I should note that a *house* in rural AK is very much different than a house in the lower 48. You could not run a "typical" house on that small of a solar system.

Yeah propane fridges / freezers are 100% electric free, just get the pilot light going and you have a working fridge. They do make DC freezers btw; but very expensive.

It's blowing about 30 MPH now at my house. Wind is a steeper cost to get into and most people try to live in the trees out of the wind.. :) For an average guy, solar is easier and cheaper. For guys living in the bush, erecting a 100' wind tower is a tough challenge; but it is easy to throw some batteries and panels in the plane and head out to the bush.

AK does have some larger scale wind projects however. I do not think we have any large scale solar projects.

[ThingOfBeauty]

I missed my big chance three days ago when this started, now I'm on page 4!
I have a small PV system, 1.1kW peak capacity (theoretical) have seen it put out 900+W on cool sunny days.
It's one of the simplest things I own, I installed it in under one day and an electrician wired it in two hours. Never had a problem with it, it's 9 years old and I never have to do anything with it.
Now I paid way more than what you would these days, total cost $8K not including my day of labor. 8K would get you twice the system, or more, installed, these days.
I did get some tax writeoffs and a grant totaling about half of it. I generally think these subsidies were a mediocre idea; jacking up energy prices would create fewer oddities. For example, a $1400 air-sealing-and-insulation project in my attic saved about as much energy on an annual basis, but that was not subsidized.

On the other hand, in carbon emissions, the PV was more competitive because it offsets summer peak electric use. On the whole the subsidies have succeeded in creating a somewhat functional industry of installers and businesses and suppliers, and as predicted, as demand went up prices fell. On the whole, it seems like we're in a better place than ten years ago; price may not have been worth it.

Oh, no payback will happen at my house. Not for a while anyway. Lifetime output of my system may equal its cost at the rates I pay.

There are a lot of places with double the electric rates and twice as much insolation, giving four times the $$$ return; that's where the panels really belong. Southwest, Hawaii. I guess nowadays anywhere reasonably sunny with rates over .15 makes sense as others mentioned.

I would do it again, installing solar panels on my house was one of the happiest days of my life, and as mentioned no problems yet.

[ThingOfBeauty]

Getting back to the original topic, few people seem to be considering the fact that you can't supply the electric grid with large amounts of variable, intermittent power from sources like solar and wind without creating problems. Unless someone comes up with a magic solution to store that power for when it's needed, there is a limit to how much the system can accept.

In the US, there is absolutely no danger we will hit this point any time soon.
Denmark is around 20% wind power currently, aiming at 50% by 2025. Germany was over 50% on a few windy days last summer. Those are big numbers. The US as a whole is at 3% wind. California is 12% combined wind and solar.
We have a loooooong way to go before this is anything more than FUD from fossil-fuel fans.