Looking for some input...

[CCodFRAMER]

I used to spend a lot of time in these forums and it's good to see that they are still going strong. My question has no technical merit, I'm trying to make a big life decision and could use some input from people in the industry. As a pre-cursor I would like to apologize for the length and irreverence of this post.

For starters let me tell you a bit about myself. I'm a 34 year old man that lives on Cape Cod. I've been here about 13 yrs now. I've been in the building industry for 16 years. I have experience in, roofing, siding, cabinet building, finish, but my strength lies in framing.

Here's my situation. 8 years ago I began working for a small framing contractor. There were 2 employees, including myself and the boss. i enjoyed the job, we performed quality work and had fun doing it. Since then, we have grown exponentially. we now employ 16 full time framers, have a shop space, own 4 all terrain fork lifts, and have 5 tool equipped trailers.

Our volume of work has increased as well. We work on anywhere from 20-30 new frames or remodels a year. Most projects are considered high end. We just finished framing a 17,000 square foot home. We do not sacrifice quality, and are considered among the best in our area.

What has happened on my end is this. A very large increase in responsibility. I went, in the 8 years from being a nail banger to "operations manager". My duties include, but are not limited to, the manager of up to 3 projects at a time. One of which I'm the lead on. Ordering and tracking of material. Conferring with contractors and other subs on various aspects of all projects. Submitting of employees weekly hours and job cost tracking.

All in all, I feel I do a pretty good job. Yes, I screw up on occasion, I'm human. That's what we do. Two years ago I agreed to go on salary at what I thought at the time was a good wage. I was also told that I would have regular use of a company vehicle. Since then the vehicle has come and gone. There has been no salary increase to go with even more of a increase in responsibility.

The point I'm trying to get to is, I'm ready to have a sit down with my employer and I'm not sure how to address it. I've never done this before. Raises and "perks" were always given on an as earned basis. At this point I feel that I'm being taken advantage of. I'm a dedicated employee that has put a lot into building this company up. I can't imagine walking away from it.

My question to those in the industry is this. How much would someone like me be worth to you? And, what do you think a good approach would be?

For those of you that have stuck with this, this far, I thank you. And, I appreciate any input that you can give me.

[dgbldr]

Two years ago I agreed to go on salary at what I thought at the time was a good wage.

How did he pay you the previous 6 years?

[BThomas]

Two years is not a long time. Not enough information. Perhaps two years ago you were over paid and are now just being paid fair??
Whatever the case - Be prepared to walk away or keep your mouth closed. I had a similar thing happen some thirty years ago. I had to walk away. At the time I really did not want to leave but when you tell the boss your are worth more than you are being paid and he doesn't offer more pay you have to walk. Staying at that point ends up with hard feelings and the work and jobs are never the same. In my case it was the best move but it didn't feel like it at the time.
Bill T

[Alaskan Son]

This is a very difficult question to answer without all the facts, but I think Bill offered some good advice.

It really depends on the market where you are, but I imagine someone such as yourself would be worth somewhere in the $60-80K a year range around here. I know that's a pretty big range, but it really depends A LOT on the number and nature of mistakes you make (we all make them)and the overall efficiency and quality of work you do. I know you see your work as one thing, but be assured your boss doesn't see it the same, and in our society most people don't tell it exactly like it is. I know I have guys over the years that I've employed for a long time, and its not always for the reasons they think. For example they may be clean, polite, hard working, dependable, and always on time...but not very good carpenters even if they think they are. I don't know what your particular situation is, but just bear in mind you may and may not be as profitable as you think you are.

[Lavrans]

Here's one of the things the construction industry absolutely sucks at: performance reviews.

You've been with the company for 8 years. What do you know about the company? How much business do you bring in? How much estimating do you do? What are the margins in the company? What do the carpenters cost to employ? How much do you cost to employ? How many people does it take to earn your salary?

Those are the pertinent points- basically, what do you cost to employ, is that justified by your productivity, and how much can you expand?

No facts to go on here, but I'm betting that you haven't sat down in the past two years on even a quarterly basis to discuss how you are doing, how you need to improve, how the company could change to operate better/more efficiently/profitably.

Few companies in construction do that. Most of the owners simply don't think about it unless someone is making mistakes, and they certainly don't do a monthly or quarterly review. Even fewer give their managers, much less their employees, any real information about the employees productivity. Mostly because most of them don't know any of that- this is one area where contractors could really use some business skills, but it's not much of a priority in general.

So, yeah. No answer there. Bill said it best. Figure out what you're worth, try to figure out what you do to make the company profitable, and what you can justify your salary to be. Remember all the extraneous, non-obvious stuff that goes on: taxes, vacation, sick days, days off, training, lost productivity, that mistakes generally cost 3x what the mistake involved (do it once, talk about it, take it apart, redo it).

How much training do you get? How much feedback? How necessary are you? I look at everything as reciprocal- you get paid less as a laborer because you don't know as much, but the reciprocal is that you get trained. If you aren't getting trained, your aren't getting your full wage (discount whatever you're getting by 50-60%). As you know more, your wage goes up, the need to train you goes down. You're in a different area now- how much training do you need, and are you getting it? If you can run all the jobs by yourself, know all the costs, do legwork for turning those jobs into more jobs, pull in leads, then you are worth a lot... If not, you're worth less, but should be getting taught.

Employees are investments. They are what will make the company profitable.

[Andrew R.]

General rule of thumb is dont make a carpenter a boss because of tenure. I've tried this many times and it didnt work they way I wanted it to. If I were you and I was managing , I would want to know about all of the profit margins and bidding that took place before I was running a bunch of jobs. Top level employees are hired to make sure there are profits.

[Dick Seibert]

Sounds to me like it's time for you to go out on your own and start your own business.

[aptbldr]

...And, what do you think a good approach would be?...

Ask for time to speak with employer/manager.
Say you are dis-satisfied. Explain why, rephrasing your post here.
Be prepared to describe then your "satisfiers": dollars, time, responsibility, perks, etc.
Be prepared for criticism, compliment, and crawfishin'.
: )

[Albion]

Howdy, allot of good insight here. The basic question is what do you want? Do you enjoy the additional responsibility? Do you want more? Do you want to own part of the company....
Having worked and enjoyed the job and grown with the company an getting older has you cogitating the future? Is it money, future? or something else. Once you have that figured out talk to the boss about where you want to go in the company. Bring up compensation package: more $, IRA? Why company truck went away and no offest in salary??? . Best of futures in the new year too.

[dlhunter]

A lot of good stuff has been said. I was probably in the same situation as you a few years back. I am no longer a framer. The company I did work for as a framer sounds close to what you have going there. We had 5-10 guys working directly for us through out the last 2 years i was there as well as 1 or 2 crews we would sub to as needed. My boss (the owner) would get prints on a regular basis to bid. When he got a new one I would take it home to look over and then meet him at the shop early the next day or so and we would decide together if we wanted it, at what price and if we would handle it ourselves or sub it to one of the crews we dealt with. The guy I worked for hid nothing from me. I knew what it would cost him and what his profits would be.
I was in the area of $60k when I left. Knowing what I did I knew I was pretty much maxed out as far as how much I could be paid and still be profitable for the company. In my opinion it's tough to pay a guy in your position much more than $60-70k if the majority of your work is framing alone. There's just no room to make extra profits by marking up materials or subs as a home builder or GC can. All you have is a bunch of guys getting paid $X per hour that have to produce $X + 20% per hour.
I left my position there because I was offered a position as a PM for a small custom home builder where I had potential to make a substantial amount more income. And I did but had to walk away from that position because of money isn't everything.
I would tell your boss you would like to speak with him about your issues. My advice is don't go in there with the attitude that he owes you something. You may want to bring some new ideas with you as to how you plan on making him more money in the future. Maybe suggest quarterly employee evaluations. I worked for one employer who did quarterly employee evaluations and it worked well. It was however a two way street. Not everyone was happy walking out of the evaluation meeting.