router bits for wreath making

[PeterJ]

Hi guys,

I am looking for a tool company that makes long vertical bits for profiling the top of goosenecks and wreaths in tangent work. In the past I've used the dimar sets that you run the router on the top and bottom of the rail to create the top and side profiles. Everybody would be familiar with the bits to profile the top that look like flat raised panel bits for cabinet doors or table edges but I need the ones that look more like the bits made to create crown moulding, long vertical bits with bearings so I can run the router along the side of the rail to profile the top.

I've looked at Amana, Dimar and Freud and didn't see them. I don't know where else to look. Is there a company that perhaps lists them under shaper bits?

I uploaded a photo of a rail I'm installing. The wreath was supplied by someone on the other side of the country. I'd like to get some cutters to produce fittings similar to the one pictured as well as the colonial profile you see in most homes now.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Peter

[philthegreek]

Have you tried CMT??
http://www.cmtutensili.com/show_item...ars2=4~7~2~2~2

Phil

[Jim Baldwin]

There are an endless variety of handrail profiles available today and nobody seriously attempts to supply stock router bits or shaper cutters. Even industry "stock" profiles differ from one supplier to the next.

There is also a huge liability in supplying large diameter tooling (the router bit you're describing might easily exceed 3" or more.) Be aware that large cutters are not designed for hand-held operations.

I have to have everything custom made and by last count, I have at least $45,000 invested in custom handrail tooling alone! If you find a better way or resource, do let us know.

[Jim Baldwin]

I may have misunderstood your intention to shape the top of a handrail from the side of the rail and perpendicular to the top? A cutter running parallel with the top profile would make more sense for a wreathed part. Either way, custom tooling is almost always required.

[Casper]

How are you going to run your router on the side of a wreath. Especially the inside?

[PeterJ]

Thanks, I'm not too good at describing it. To clarify, yes the bit would be about 3" long. If you were to look at a level cross section of the rail profile the router or table would hold the long bit horizontal to carve the top.

Casper, I've had luck using a router on curved fittings. I recently was talking to someone about wreath making and he uses small custom base plates so the bit will keep in it's plane and not veer off and ruin the profile. I can't get the router inside a tight curve which is why I was looking for the long bit to profile both top edges by running the router on the outside of the curve. I'd still have to do some hand carving. I just want to save some time on the tops if I can.

Jim, you must have a local tool maker fabricate your bits as opposed to a large tool company. Is that correct?

I'll have to track down the fellow I was speaking with recently. I didn't get his number. Wish I had.

Thanks for the replies, sounds like I'll have to find a local tool maker.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jim Baldwin]

I'm located in So Utah but use a company in So Cal (Farrs Custom Carbide) There's a lot of tool makers around the country who specialize in custom cutters.

If you're trying to use hand-held routers to shape small wreathed pieces such as in the picture, I suggest small bits and small cuts (ruining the profile may be the least of your worries).

Sometimes it's quicker and safer using hand tools. Handrailers of the past used various shaves and molding planes and produced incomparable balustrades (without the blood).

[PeterJ]

Well said Jim, safety is a high risk with large bits I dislike even shaping fittings on a table. Also since I'll be doing much of the carving by hand anyway I suppose it would be better for me to just get better and faster at old school hand work although I could still use a die grinder to hog out the big stuff and clean up with the gouges.

Much of my rail shaping experience has been with curved railings and 'production' type parts. No one really knows much about tangent work in my area and thus have had to try and figure out the face molds with little direction. If anyone does a handrail workshop again I should make a vacation out of it!

Thanks,
Peter

[Jim Baldwin]

English handrail shave, early 1800's (no knife) This tool functioned like a spokeshave. It was sold in pairs and featured interchangeable, dovetailed center sections that could be shaped to any profile (this one is for the top of the handrail).

A tool like this could probably shape the top of a small wreath faster than a machine set-up.

[PeterJ]

Jim, it's hard to see in the picture, did the shave cut like a spokeshave or more like a scraper?

[Jim Baldwin]

This is a shave and not a scraper. You would need a matched pair (right and left)for this to be of any use. I found them on line being offered for sale as "a set" but some "collector" ahead of me, purchased only one. Still this was not a homemade tool.

[PeterJ]

Jim, I have a few questions if you don't mind. Regarding the shave. Would the iron have been held in with a wood wedge similar to old wooden hand planes or a thumb screw of sorts. As a rough guess, what do you suspect the cutting angle of the iron is? I have in the past made my own profile scrapers and hand planes. It might be worth while making a set like yours one day.

Cheers

[Jim Baldwin]

Yes wood wedge...I don't know what the cutting angle is and I'm away from the shop for a couple of weeks.

Google handrail shave and check out .ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-STAIR-MAKERS-HAND-RAIL-SHAVE-PLANE-L-K-/221131182388 along with http://images.cloud.worthpoint.com/w...0d22378956.jpg

.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Handrail-Shave-Circular-Router-Spokeshave-Old-Tools-/150928669781?pt=UK_Collectable_ToolsHasdware_RL&ha sh=item23240cbc55&ssPageName=RSS:B:SHOP:GB:101

Other antique tools worth considering include a quirk router, Windsor beader and various coach makers' shaves.

Simple profiled scrapers work in both directions along with the band-blade shave versions.

Most likely the tools which may work the best, will be the ones you make yourself.