Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

[hambone]

I'm taking the plunge and installing the stairs on my current project with housed stair stringers. I've done a few small sets of stairs as a warm-up, in garages and in basements. I love the way they go in. I pretty much follow Andy Engels excellent book.

I guess I've picked a doosey as these are open on one side for lower section. I've designed the stairs to be open from the handrail height down, basically so the balusters and handrail can stop and not become progressively smaller running up to the ceiling. The stairs will become wider where they open and I'll frame a wall to hold up the notched stringer.

I'll follow up with lots of pics and I'm hoping you guys with know-how can provide some guidance, and guys in my position can follow along and learn a thing or two.

So far I've laid out the right-hand side, which will be fully housed and used it to lay out the left-hand side both at the top(housed), and the bottom(notched). The housed stringers are 5/4 X 10 poplar, the notched 1 X 12. The treads are 1X12 oak, with returns pre-applied where applicable. I've made my template. To small, no room from clamps. I will use it as my template for all future templates with 1-1/4" overhangs and this profile. Lesson learned.

[cfullen]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Can't wait to see how it goes.

[hambone]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Production begins. I spent some time planning these out. I hope it all works out okay.

Here is a pic of the existing stairs at the front of the house as well as my plan. I pick up some room for the hallway at the top of the steps, which divide the kitchen from the addition, by adding a few steps and a landing at the bottom of the hall. The wall below, which will close off the basement stairs, will be framed with 2X4 on the flat as the hallway to the stair is already quite thin.
IMG_20120823_111656.jpgIMG_20120826_193310.jpgIMG_20120827_120055.jpg

The existing set had pie shaped winders that led into the kitchen. The old stair was fairly steep as well, but very well constructed for the back stair of a two-family. The old wainscotting ran in a dado on each tread and served as the skirt. 1x stringers with a rough work 2x6 with triangles nailed on for the center stringer.

At this point I have all the stringers routed, the notched stringer is done,and all the treads and risers for the housed section are to size.

[hambone]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Assembly begins. Everything's working out well. I wish i had ran a dado in each riser and paired it with a rabbet on each tread. Or at least I'm considering it for the next set. With my current method each tread must match each mortise exactly for a neat fit, as the riser runs behind each tread and is screwed in with deck screws. So far it has required a few swipes with a block plane for some of the treads. An alternative would be to be extra careful to ensure that each tread depth was exactly the same. Perhaps a mark on my template for this particular run?


IMG_20120828_151357.jpg

[steve demetrick]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

I just finished building the same stair carriage yesterday,(housed stringer, 1st five risers open on the left) I wish I had taken some pictures of the process to share with you. I'll try to post some finished pics tomorrow. I've seen older stairs with the treads and risers tongue and grooved together. With the glue and screws we use today, I don't think the extra work for the t&g is necessary. Careful placement of the mortising jig will make the back of the tread line up nicely with the riser. If it doesn't, you can always trim use a forstner bit to elongate the tread housing. A couple of things I do to make things tighter is a 7 deg. dovetail bit to rout the housings as well as tapering the back of the tread by 1 deg so the tread/riser joint is really tight. One other thing I did differently was assemble the carriage in place. I fit the top and bottom cuts (miters and plumb cuts where it meets the baseboard) of the skirts, and then installed all the risers/treads/wedges, etc. in place. One reason was that I couldn't get the preassembled carriage into the opening, and I hate moving those massive heavy stair carriages. I look forward to seeing the rest of the progress.

-Steve

[Kent Brobeck]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

This is a great thread. Thanks for sharing with us. For me the interesting part it the skirt transition from housed to mitered. Discussing your layout and methods with picture would be priceless. Keep it coming...

[hambone]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Thanks Steve. I considered the dovetail bit. Is yours 1/2" shank with a bearing to follow your jig, or are you using a collar? I used a pattern bit to make my jig so it's nice and square and I'm very happy with the results. The only place I see a bit of space, and it's negligible, is at the end of the treads from discrepancies in the profile. I'll be extra careful on the next set to keep each tread width consistent. There's some wiggle room on the risers, they can run a 1/32" long. I am definitely taking your suggestion and ripping the treads at 1-degree.

KB, I decided the skirt should transition at the first riser that could receive the post for the handrail, or where the handrail meets the wall if you are going to terminate with a rosette. In my case my floor is roughly 12" and then I need another 38" or so (the handrail height) until I hit the plane of the nosings. So to achieve 50" or more I needed to transition at the seventh riser from the top, which will give me 52-1/16" at the nosing, because I have a riser height of 7-7/16".

My risers after the transition will become 3-1/2" longer than the dimension to the back of my upper skirt to the long point of the mitre. This will allow 5/8" for board twice, 1-1/2" for my studs on the flat, and 3/4" for my notched skirt. I'll draw this out full scale in the morning to double check my numbers. I considered doing it at 2:45 and decided I wasn't at the top of my game at this point in the day. Instead I cut the scotia to size and cleaned up some glue drips, of which there was very little. Engel's book gives details on assembly to minimize the glue showing up where it shouldn't.

I just used a circular saw to cut a plumb cut 1/2" away from the face of the riser(so it could be locked into position). I plan on notching my post around this portion of the skirt so my cut will be buried.

IMG_20120828_212130.jpg

[hambone]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Didn't get a ton done today. Lots of distractions. I tried my hand at rabbeting in the treads to the risers. It wasn't worth it in this application. I would probably have liked it in the top area, where both sides are housed, but in the bottom area it was more trouble than it's worth. My lumberyard stocks these treads with the returns already attached on one side, making the rabbet on that side more difficult than just running it through the table saw with a dado setup. I do like the way it comes together with that groove though.

The skirt was laid out and cut based on the longer stringer.

I laid out the wall assembly on a scrap, 3/4" spacer for board, 1.5" for studs on the flat. 3/4" spacer again, and then 3/4" for the notched stringer or skirt. I placed the scrap on the routed 5/4 and measured right into the notch on the opposite side. From the riser dimension I then just added 1-1/4" for my overhang to determine the tread length.

Assembly was a breeze, even solo with just my ridgid flip top to help hold up the skirt.


IMG_20120829_160733.jpgIMG_20120829_095525.jpg

[kevin zale]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Ham,
Great thread Ive got one of these jobs comong up in a couple of weeks. Keep the photos and the commentary coming. You can never take(or post too many pics).

kevin zale

[steve demetrick]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Here are some pictures of the stair carriage I just completed. Hope they can be of some help to you. I'm usually very good about taking pictures, don't know why I dropped the ball on this one.

Your stair is looking great. One thing I've found easier is to install the treads before the risers where the stair is closed on both sides. It's easier to control the glue, less mess is less to clean up. On the open side, I glue and fasten the riser at the miter and leave it loose on the wedged side, and immediatly put in the tread with all the glue everywhere and wedge and screw everything.

-Steve

[hambone]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Thanks Steve, your pics are great.

I forgot my phone today, so no pics. Lots of pics tomorrow. The stairs are all assembled. Just attaching the last few pieces of scotia and then install.

[kevin zale]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Steve, what do you use for your stringer on the open side, it looks like 2x in the pic ? Pocket screw the riser to the treads is one of the best uses for a kreg ever.
Thanks
kevin

[steve demetrick]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Kevin,
I mill all my stringers to 13/16". The 2x you see from underneath is part of the old rough stringer that we recut to use as support framing under the open side. I do like how the pocket screws clamp the glue joints together. In this case, we assembled the stair carriage in place so we couldn't screw through the stringer into the tread. I used pocket screws under the tread to pull it tight to the stringer hammering the glued wedge in tight.

-Stev

[hambone]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Victory! The stairs went in great. The bad news is my phone was wonky when i wanted to take the pics.

The framer has started calling my stairs the big production, hence the name on my jig. He doesn't believe that my housed stringers can be as strong as stingers framed from LVL. I challenged him to notch a set, lay them out between 2 horses spread out 12'. I'll do the same, and we'll jump in the middle of the spans. Then we forgot about it,which is too bad.

I have a minor issue where i transition from housed to mitred. That tread wants to open up from it's riser. I can clamp it closed again, but it's going to need a little TLC on Tuesday. I think I'll install a bit of notched LVL in there and tie it into the framing.

Lots of pics on Tuesday, I'll have my camera. The elevator is scheduled for delivery as well, another first for me.

[Jim Baldwin]

Re: Combination Housed Stair Stringers.

Two thumbs-up (Hambone & Steve)for building stairs the right way! It's a sad fact that few stairs today are being built in the traditional manor. It's unfortunate because in some cases it's actually easier to "build it right" than overlay a rough stair with finished facings.

I've noticed something which I might comment on pertaining to tread/riser connection at the nosing. It looks like Steve has run pocket-screws up through the inside of the riser and into the tread while hambone comments that one of the "treads wants to open up from it's riser".

Pocket screws per se, (as far as stairs are concerned) are not traditional fasteners. Traditional (tried and true) construction, involves glue-blocks installed along the inside corner of the tread and riser (and nothing more). No screws, no nails or anything to squeak or work lose. These blocks were installed with hot hide-glue and rubbed into position. Nails were neither needed nor recommended. In fact, the number one source of stair squeaks is the (misguided) nailing along the tread and riser and into the supporting rough stringer.

Using pocket-screws to pull and hold stringers to the treads and risers is also a new one... In my opinion, stairs should always be assembled on the bench or floor. This allows complete access to the stair structure for fasteners and glue-blocks.

Production stair builders utilized a standing floor press to clamp and hold the entire stair together during assembly (of course they didn't have a case of square-head cap screws or electric screwdrivers).

Anyway, something to think about.