Hilti DX460 will not penetrate 1/2" steel through 2x

[kupono]

My DX460 powder actuated nailer will not fire a 2" pin through 2x lumber and a 1/2" mild structural steel wide-flange beam. I don't know if this is typical or not, but even the Hilti guys couldn't do it with a brand new gun and purple loads. The pins go in only so far, then bend.

The not so great solution is to predrill, then use the single shot adapter so you can place the pin in the hole. No need to drill completely through the steel--1/4" will do. Works just fine then, but it's not too fast.

I remember my old high velocity gun. It'd shoot through anything. Has anyone else experienced this? Could it be that my wide-flange beam is harder than typical--maybe too many high carbon melted cars in it?

[Dick Seibert]

Kupono:

I recently bought a DX 460 MX, I bought 27 caliber short black loads, it shoots 52mm DS Heavy Duty pins fine through ¼" and 3/8" steel, in the ½" steel the 52mm pins go all the way in but not through the steel. I also bought 72mm pins for the ½" steel but the pins bent over without going all the way through so I returned the 72mm pins and just used the 52mm pins. I'm coming up on 3,000 shots now, I don't think the structural engineer is going to say anything about the 52mm pins not emerging through the steel, most of my ½" steel is in columns and nobody can see inside the columns.

Why purple loads and not black? Are you shooting Heavy Duty pins? Maybe we both need the DX 76-MX, it shoots 27 caliber long pins, the DX 460 MX won't take the 27 caliber long loads. I agree with you that the old high velocity guns were better, but in this safety conscious age they are gone forever.

BTW, it's good to have somebody else from California since we are working with steel now.

[Dick Hackbarth]

Kupono.... When you order a mild steel WF beam, you might as likely get a 50 or 60ksi material as the old std. 36ksi material. If you look at the ASTM specs. almost anything can be sold at A36 these days. As long as it is “better than, stronger than,” you get what they have in stock. Some of the higher strength, harder, steels do drill a little harder than the softer mild steels. You really do need quality drills and drill motors. Driving a pin is a little bit different situation in that you are piercing, and expanding or spreading the steel around and away from the pin, in an inertial process. As the material gets thicker, there is more material in all directions to resist this piercing action, so there is a limit with whatever load and pin you start out with. On the thinner material it is almost exclusively a piercing operation, but you quickly start changing the pin tip geometry and using up the pin momentum. Then, on the thicker material there is more bulk of material around the pin (in all/three directions, x, y, & z) to resist the hole expanding the pin is trying to do, and due to the tip geometry changes it is not as effective at piercing either. I would think that as long as the 2" pins drive without bending you know what penetration you have and you should be o.k. That’s certainly as good as that same pin in a 3/8" plate. I would think that those pins are essentially “inertially welded” in place once driven without bending. The Hilti engineering people should be able to explain this process to you if you are interested. Their sales guy will just say, ‘yep, it drove in or no it didn’t, buy more stuff from us and maybe that’ll work.”

Dick.... Did you ever get your HSS columns dried out, located and squared up? I kinda expected to hear from you again, as you determined the best solution to your problems. With all else that goes on out in CA, and the precautions they take in their codes, I’m surprised that they don’t require you to put condoms on the end of all erect columns. I think that’s what I mean. :-)

[kupono]

Thanks Guys,

I'm actually using the 52mm/2" pins. They work most of the time, but stand a little proud of the 2x. The 1-7/8" pins are working better. I've been furring out some columns which aren't quite plumb. I have to thin some of the 2x nailers by a 1/4" or so to get them plumb. It's those thinner nailers that are causing most of the grief. Definitely have to predrill on those. Hate having to though. I've been using the red loads, and based on the Hilti guys recommendation thought I'd try the purple loads to see if they'd pound the pins through--they didn't. Not a bit of difference. By the way, the purple load strips look black to me, though I've been assured that they are in fact purple.

I think I will look into the DX-76-MX.
BTW, I live in Hawaii now. You reminded me to update my profile.

Dick H: Thanks for the technical explanation of pin penetration. Do you think lubrication in addition to condoms might help?

Thanks Guys.

[Deansocial]

Ineresting this is as ive been looking at that nailer and the spit nailer, might go for the spit

[customwoodworking]

believe it or not I have been using type F thread cutting screws. These things are amazing to see. Pre drill the wood or not and then just spin them until the pilot is cut and watch them drive. All sizes and lengths from light duty to really heavy duty. The cool thing is you can spin them out if need be. We dont install hundreds of a time but they go fast if you need to. They have a washered head and it sits flush on the framing. I think they have really been in use aroung light steel structural work. Storage facilities, attaching wood planks to steel trailers and the like. Try them once and your hooked!

[Dick Seibert]

Kupono:

I've looked a little further into this, I tried shooting ½" plywood on to ½" steel with my Heavy Duty Black 27 caliber cartridges, they apparently went into the steel just as far as they did into the 1½" 2xs, but they bent over shooting through ½" thick plywood. I think you need the Heavy Duty Black Cartridges instead of the standard purple cartridges.

[sbebuilders]

Dick,

I think "buy more stuff from us and maybe that’ll work.” is already copyrighted by Simpson Strong tie. I believe Hilti's current slogan is "we'll engineer it so you have to buy our products".

Sim

[MSLiechty]

are you using the ballistic tip pins? We've found they penetrate much better than the standard pins in old CIP concrete. Id assume they would help on the 1/2" steel.

ML

[Dick Hackbarth]

Sim:
I was actually thinking more in terms of getting the straight poop from someone, in the know, in the engineering dept. vs. one of their salesmen. I don’t work for Simpson Strong Tie, USP/MiTek or Hilti, but let’s give a little credit where credit is do, at the same time we damn them. They are doing some of the best testing and development work for us as engineers and builders to hang our hats on. And, I do talk to their engineers and engineering depts. when I have questions or issues. They are providing hardware and products which we can not do without, today. No doubt they lobby the ICC when it is in their interest, I can’t afford to do that, so I don’t get a say with the ICC. But, we are doing things today, that we could never have done without their hardware and products. We are getting far more sophisticated about EQ engineering, design and building than we ever were, and certainly we do want safe infrastructure, but we’re also getting crazier and crazier in what we try to do, or what we think can be done in the way of design.

They are riding the code change and complexity wagon, but I don’t think they are really the driving force. They are just providing the ever more expensive answers to what we are forced to do by the code. The code writing business has become an industry unto itself, an end in itself. And, the code writers make their money by publishing their crap much faster than you and I can ever learn to use what they are putting out; and the BO’s/plan checkers/inspectors stay employed by keeping things in a state of flux too. These people have certainly become the lords of the universe, not the engineer or the master builder any longer. Then some Arch’s. (not all) foist crazy design on us too. I would like them to slow down enough so we can learn to use and understand what they have already inflicted upon us, but that’s not in their economic interest.

Looking at the complexity of the buildings and codes you and DickS are dealing with, the quality of your workmanship certainly shows your chops. But, you didn’t really ask for that complexity or cause it, the code writers, Archs. and home owners are insisting on this wild stuff. And, you couldn’t have done it without this special hardware and structural steel, with moment connections, etc. With no two shear walls lining up, with no framing lines running all the way through the bldg., with the large window wall openings, with the wild assed open floor plans and roof systems you deal with, these bldgs. are a real whore’s night mare for the engineer too. There is no straight, simple load path in the whole darn bldg. I’m not convinced that this is good architecture, it is just wild and very expensive living space. The old... I’m willing to pay for it, so mine is bigger (differenter?) than yours, bet you can’t do this... complexity for its own sake, is alive and well.

[kwcarpentry98]

Hilti has different drivers for concrete vs.steel. One driver has a DNI code and the steel one has ANI for its code. I keep both in the box and really just leave the harder driver in the gun. I gave up trying to shoot pins. Most of the 2x plate that we affix to steel beams need to be through bolted where we build. I bought a magnetic drill and prep our steel onsite. I love my mag. drill (hougen)