How do you approach potential work outside your current expertise?

**pablodomingo** · 03-06-2012, 09:32 AM

I'm curious to know your approach regarding taking on jobs that you've never done before. I have specialized in things I know well and am set up to handle in an efficient way, but going forward I need to stretch to learn new things.

When I run trimwork, I feel comfortable, I know how to charge for it, I know how long it's gonna take and so on. But when it comes to doing things I've never done before, that's where I can potentially risk losing money because things take longer than expected. Even the design process can take longer due to unforeseen things. What's your approach when taking on new things or things you don't do with your usual production oriented approach?

**MarkMc** · 03-06-2012, 09:58 AM

Depending, you sort of answered it already - it would be more time consuming and less profitable; an investment, which like any investment demands homework and tuition then perhaps capital outlay prior to getting a monetary return. Be realistic/honest with yourself [and with the client]. Hard to get more specific w/o much more detail.

**JAlvis** · 03-06-2012, 10:08 AM

Research, Research, and more Research. The learning curve is wide!

If I stopped every time something came up I haven't done then I would be out of business. I think the best thing to do is be sure your the one working on that given job(paying yourself as a laborer and a foreman). Keep accurate records of each stage building a detailed record. By using yourself as a laborer on the job you will understand the project better and be less likely to loose money since your getting paid. In my experience it gives a little cushion if theres a problem since your taking some man hours from the crew.

Another good Idea is to spend a minimum of an hour a day doing continued education. That includes reading this website, trade magazines/books, technical manuals, and personal development books.

**rustbucket** · 03-06-2012, 10:19 AM

We all need to learn, grow and adapt to different circumstances. I'm not sure what exactly you are looking at, but if you're a trim guy, and want to branch out, make sure you read and understand all the applicable codes involved. Start on small projects in lower-end houses where the standards are a bit lower. Less chance of losing your shirt when the contract value is pretty low to begin with. Also make sure you fully understand the scope of the work.

There is no rocket science in home building and renovations, but the reason trades are typically separated is that it takes a long time to really become proficient at doing something. A drywall guy, tile guy, roofer or other tradesman with experience can walk up to a house and know exactly what to do within a short period of time.

A jack of all trades is rarely good at any of them. On the other hand, that doesn't mean you can pick up two or three things and do them quite well. Personally I have tried drywall and tile, and have found both to be a struggle. Drywall I'm just too slow, and have to touch up too much, and tile because laying them out properly so it actually looks right is a skill I'm only marginal at. People who lay tile every day develop an eye for these things.

So my advice is to start small. Hire others more experienced to work with, if you can. Know the applicable codes. Understand the project before you commit. Don't get over your head.

**aerieandy** · 03-06-2012, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by rustbucket

We all need to learn, grow and adapt to different circumstances. I'm not sure what exactly you are looking at, but if you're a trim guy, and want to branch out, make sure you read and understand all the applicable codes involved. Start on small projects in lower-end houses where the standards are a bit lower. Less chance of losing your shirt when the contract value is pretty low to begin with. Also make sure you fully understand the scope of the work.

There is no rocket science in home building and renovations, but the reason trades are typically separated is that it takes a long time to really become proficient at doing something. A drywall guy, tile guy, roofer or other tradesman with experience can walk up to a house and know exactly what to do within a short period of time.

A jack of all trades is rarely good at any of them. On the other hand, that doesn't mean you can pick up two or three things and do them quite well. Personally I have tried drywall and tile, and have found both to be a struggle. Drywall I'm just too slow, and have to touch up too much, and tile because laying them out properly so it actually looks right is a skill I'm only marginal at. People who lay tile every day develop an eye for these things.

So my advice is to start small. Hire others more experienced to work with, if you can. Know the applicable codes. Understand the project before you commit. Don't get over your head.

Agree with 99% of that except if I made sure never to get in over my head I would never learn to swim. Sometimes we learn the most when we are dangerously close to drowning. Not saying it's profitable but pushing the comfort zone is essential in my book, not only for business but for a healthy, interesting and vibrant life.

**Tom Bainbridge** · 03-06-2012, 12:43 PM

I'm with rustbucket. I occasionally take on small items of work that are ancillery to my carpentry and cabinet making.

I tell customers who ask for such things that it isn't my trade but I will glaze a replacement window I make and prime it. I will put half a dozen tiles up as a splashback behind a basin, but not a whole wall. Yes i will screw drywall to a stud partition but i won't plaster it or fill and tape it.

They must be ancillery and small cost items within an overall carpentry / cabinet quote. Otherwise I saw no.

I'm learning to spray paint with HVLP but that is a specific descision to add value to my cabinet work and currently I will only do priming.

**youralive** · 03-06-2012, 02:47 PM

How do you get to Carnegie Hall...................
If you have, say, a porch roof to frame with hip rafters, and have never cut a hip rafter, build a doghouse with hip rafters in your garage/shop.
If you have to run casing that calls for jack miters, and have never done them, build some picture frames with jack miters.
Get comfortable with whatever makes you nervous on your time and in your environment: in other words, practice like a motherfer, till you are confident and competent.

Most things in this business share a lot of basics. Break down the new task like you are studying a game film, identifying any familiar parts. Now the new task seems more manageable, and you can build on what you already are good at.

The advice to do research is also excellent, both this forum (see DaveK), craftsmen in your area, and work in place in existing buildings. I spent a lot of time roaming around public buildings looking at hardware before I took on my first commercial hardware install (good thing security wasn't watching too closely, I wanted to take a few things apart but my wife reasonably suggested otherwise).

Ultimately, remember that you are a businessman who provides some type of building service, not a carpenter who happens to be in the building business. Make your decision primarily from a business standpoint-will I provide value to my customer, and make a profit for my business? Perhaps subbing out the work will be your best bet. Depending on your customer, you may be able to take on the new portion on an hourly basis. Be up front with the customer about your skills. If you have a good relationship with the customer and they really want you to do the work, they may agree to an hourly deal.
Bon Chance,
Mark

**DonMirabito** · 03-06-2012, 04:49 PM

Oh I like this one...All the info above is valuable, but I'm a little crazy so I fearlessly go after EVERYTHING whether or not I know what I'm doing when I contract for the job. Don't be afraid to try. You can't learn anything by staying in your comfort zone. Most of the work I do is "one-off" customized for a particular clients needs. Therefore, most of what I do has never been done before - at least by me! Education IS expensive! In some cases despite my research and practice efforts with mock-ups I still may not know exactly how I'm going to do something, BUT I take comfort in knowing ONE thing - I WILL know how to do it when I'm done! Sadly, it may be because I have tried every possible way and they all failed, but the last one! Did I mention that Education can be expensive? Go for it...It will make you a better builder!

Don

**Don_in_Idaho** · 03-31-2012, 12:10 AM

My first finish carp job was helping a retired conytractor from a colorado ski town build his retirement home....everything as nice as can be. He told me some of the best advice I've ever heard. He told me you'll never be able to learn by experience all the crazy things clients will throw at you so you need to learn to teach yourself.

Get a good collection of resources (internet, books, brochures, trade info, magazines, etc.).
Develop a good network of knowledgeable people you can ask questions of when need be.
Approach new things you aren't familar with systematically - learn background info so you know how to ask intelligent questions, know enough to know what you know and what you don't, start on small areas to get the hang of it, and never let them see you sweat the process.

It's served me well since then.

....and get comfortable with T & M .....if you're going to do something unfamilar it's comforting to be able to pay bills even if you're not getting rich.

**coopercustom** · 03-31-2012, 01:51 AM

I have been working on a strange basement. The space between the basement floor and the second floor stair landing is something like 13" in a 5' x 7' area, so the client has me building a fuax treefort. there is a 48" tall door in their living room up stairs with a step into the "treefort", in the treefort there is a opening on the floor with a ladder down to the basement. first she wanted a 21" round hole for the opening, then it became a somewhat halfmoon, now that I tried to kerf 1/4 plywood to wrap the 10 1/2" inside radius and gave her a price to get bendy ply I will be there on Mon. cutting that hole to a square. This job is was all on the GC who did not give me any insight to what he had planned or budgeted and was trying my hardest to give the homeowner everything she had envisioned. This job has been great because if I ever have to build a round hole through the floor with a ladder and try to make it kid friendly I will know what to do. I am lucky as this has all been time and material but I am sure that with as much research as I put into it after the first meeting I could have come up with a fair number and included the bendy ply and custom made trim. I have been waiting to post some pictures of this project until it is done as the painters are in there now, but building the ladder and hole and the whole thing was not exactly in my expertise, just do your research and think about it day and night until it drives you nuts and after even the smallest of details have kept you up in bed longer than you would like, then you know you have almost got it.
Josh

**TSJHD1** · 03-31-2012, 06:16 AM

This is a timely question for me, since I just installed a storm door this week, and I had not done one in probably 2 decades (if ever!)

First off, you must realize that on a project that is not in your area of expertise, you're really not much different than a DIY'er in some respects, but you have hopefully lots of experience in related work to draw from. Which helps. But you gotta make room for the possibility that you might make a critical mistake.

This is hard to explain, but you need to try to identify the part of the job where you don't know that you don't know what you're doing. In other words, it's like you need a sixth sense to identify a potential pitfall that may happen to you, but the problem is, you don't know where it could occur until you've done the job at least once. A few examples will help explain what I mean...

When hanging kitchen wall cabinets, you run a screw into a plumbing vent. It felt a little different than a stud...

When installing synthetic decking, you butt the rows tight to each other, just like you were taught (when installing wet pressure-treated boards, since they'll create gaps when they shrink...

Vinyl beaded soffit goes up on a 20' long porch ceiling in 3 equal sections, broken up by "H" channel. But instead of running it row by row, you install a section at a time. The day you start is 30 degrees colder than the next day, which you discover does make a difference, when you notice the rows are not lining up, due to the warmer temps making the pieces ever so slightly wider than the ones you already installed... You knew temp changes made the stuff get longer, but also wider? Who'da thought?

Silicone caulk can't be painted.
Width is first on window openings.
8d trim nails in baseboard trim can reach to the pocket door.
The doorknob on the storm door might hit the deadbolt on the house door. (But it didn't! And I did think to check to see if it was going to before I went too far with the install.) But the instructions didn't mention anything about this possibility. So who would've thought to check this sort of thing?

Remember, if you're doing something unfamiliar, and you have no or limited experience, you're not much more than a carpenter's helper doing a task for the first time.

Take your time.
Read all the instructions.
Get help. Seriously. Talk to someone who's done it before and ask them what could trip you up.
Use your subconscious mind: After thinking it through thoroughly, sleep on it. That will allow your mind to alert you to important details.
Stay extra focused while working: No radio, no chit chat.
Of course, use this forum to get advice.

And on the moral side, be fair to your customer with your time and rates.

Tom

**dlhunter** · 03-31-2012, 09:04 AM

Tom, That post pretty much sums up my early career. No one ever taught me how to do anything. I learned almost everything I know by finding out the hard way. I used to tell people "yeah I can do that, no problem", then take my time pulling out the tools until they left so they wouldnt see me reading directions and scratching my head. You don't really know how to do it until you've done it wrong.

**Happy Home** · 03-31-2012, 10:21 AM

Storm Doors........got a call can you install a storm door ? Of course I can and have gotten pretty good at it. I bring my table saw, shim as needed, caulk and give a good installation. It will only pay so much however. I do charge a bit more than other folks though.

Go there - it was a mfg home, SD supplied by owner. It was new. Z chan fits directly over the door 3/4 jamb with a flange screwed to the sheathing. It was integrated into the siding. Called the owner to review. Door swing was wrong. I had to reverse the Z bar. No flange on the new door to accept the siding. Had to use J channel. I used P & S on the flange / osb joint - had to shim flange to close properly so the flange was out from the osb and just wanted to do a good job. He was very accepting of the increase in cost.

I thought I was on to a 4 - 5 hr job that I have down pretty good. Instead it took me about half a day longer than I quoted. I always get (volunteer) for these jobs ??? Last week I was saying here how I've got to do everything the hard way. I do not make my problems the customers problems in comments, body language, raking them or anything else.

They were happy and I was happy that I could do the job with proficiency. I'm glad they were not messed over by another contractor not up to the job leaving a mess there.

They asked me to quote a front porch with a shed roof. Now I'm exercising about how to tie into the existing roof / trusses, stand alone or ledger to the foundation ?

Does it ever end ?

**kreg McMahon** · 03-31-2012, 10:45 AM

read, ask questions of piers, youtube search, practice and learn and then do better next time.. school you usually pay for then go do... here we can get paid to learn and sometimes you loose your ass but you learn for next time.

i have done projects for people that showed me a picture of a cabinet, or a room or a wall and I say I can do that and do it...

I have tried doing vinyl floors about 4 times and will never do them again.. I will never put a playlet together, not worth the time.

and a few other things.. but I can look at something and say I can do it or I can't even if I have never done it before.

when I first started my handyman business my first job was installing a pre hung re door. I said 125 labor plus door.. I had a car... I hung the door out the trunk, spent 89 bucks on a sazall it took me 6 hours... the lady asked me when I pulled up and saw the door hanging out the back of my nissen maxima do I do this full time ! WTF

next doors i bid more and did better, and better...

had to do a garbage disposal read the home depot book on how to... i was about a block from the guys house reading then went in a did it.. it was actually easy.. have done hundreds since then.

so you learn and hope !

**Lavrans** · 03-31-2012, 12:07 PM

I think everyone has said something good.

I think that you have to provide a professional service. Something should cost about a certain amount, and people shouldn't be paying extra for your education. That doesn't mean you can't educate yourself on the job, and part of the cost of any job does include covering ongoing education.

The trick, IMO, is in figuring out how much the job is worth. All the discussions about time and materials and overhead and profit in a job is another way of thinking about what it's worth- what it's worth in order for you to do it, the value to the customer, and the value of the job. Gary has made the point several times that we should be pricing the value of the job rather than how long it will take us to do it, and that is, really, the basis of a straight bid job; a well bid job is really the value of the job in total, rather than just time/materials/profit.

I figure that I won't make top dollar when I'm learning a job, and I know that I probably won't bid it right. I try to figure out how much time each step will take, I try to remember that I am too optimistic and add a multiplier of some sort, and then I might just ask some other people in the field. That's where contacts can really help.

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