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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Northwest Indiana
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Have you looked for kiln dried after treated? Might be a supplier in the greater Detriot area.

    Tom
    Last edited by tjbnwi; 03-01-2012 at 05:41 PM.
    http://chicagocraftsmen.org/2011/06/261.html

    Check with the AHJ, what we say doesn't matter.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    St Louis, Mo for the past 25 years
    Posts
    7,569

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Tom,
    your rediforms are not legal here in St Louis City. Not sure about the county since I have not checked.
    I did want to ask about your having the wood so close to the ground. I thought that was part of the reason we are asked to extend to concrete footing 8 inches above grade, to keep the wood away from the ground and help pervent future rot. Maybe I am wrong?

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lancaster County, PA
    Posts
    653

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    I'm in the boat of 'get it in place before it moves'. My local yard keeps their PT in a shed so it doesn't get rained on directly but it is not inside like the box stores. I have good luck with using what they send out. If there is a piece or three that I just can't use, they'll let me exchange it.

    I think of it kind of like Greg. I can't completely control what the wood is going to do - I can do my best to prevent it from moving, but that is no guarantee. If a twisted post or rail may be an issue to a client then they should pay the upgrade to a vinyl rail system or similar. If cupped deck boards or splinters are going to be a problem, then upgrade to composite or PVC.

    I can appreciate what Tom is trying to accomplish by stickering and storing, but for me that isn't an option. I don't have the shop space for it and most clients expect you on their site the day lumber is delivered, so getting it delivered a head of time is only going to give me an extra headache.

    To each his own.
    Contact us for all you mailbox post installation needs!

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Northwest Indiana
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    beez,

    I believe the cap covers 4-5" of the pipe. So the bottom of the beam is that far off the ground. I'll check on this latter and get back on this.

    If you check their website they do provide the engineering data for the building department. That is what I have used.

    Tom
    http://chicagocraftsmen.org/2011/06/261.html

    Check with the AHJ, what we say doesn't matter.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Danbury area of western CT
    Posts
    4,441

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJHD1 View Post
    There won't be a 50% loss. Maybe 10. I mean, it all starts with the quality of the material you're buying, and that could be a major difference in our discussion here.

    If I need 10 posts, I'm going to buy however many extra I believe I will need, so that I get 10 that will be acceptable for the project. And there's other details to consider too.

    For example, first off, I don't build decks that use the support posts as the rail posts. I like to use 6x6's for supports, because 4x4's are too "spindly", and 6x6's can be "let in" to the rim. And this way the support posts will be restrained at both ends, so the "stickering" that I'm talking about wouldn't even need to be done with the 6x6's.

    I do like 4x4's for the rail posts, but we're only talking about 4' pieces. So you buy 12' posts, and plan to only get 2 pieces out of each. Buy some extra, and return what you can't use.

    I guess I just don't see the difficulty in this process that some do. I can say without reservation that we have 3 local resources for treated lumber, and the material they sell is of fine quality. Two of them keep it indoors.

    Tom
    I would add, that if the components are kept separate, ie piers/posts/railing posts, then replacement (if needed down the road) can be done without affecting the entire structure. I personally have not built a deck with 4x4 support posts in 20 yrs (since before doing this professionally). I would never place PT posts IN concrete. They are not ground contact rated and concrete IS ground contact.

    As far as joists are concerned, I cull the lumber and organize it by size and crown. When I build the frame I take a 6' level and mark high spots and plane them down and then treat. It does not take that long to do.

    I too would have doubts about the penetrations of the steel, but I will keep an open mind about longevity. Greg likes the TEBO system, but what about serviceability? I will always opt to make something serviceable over fast-n-easy. That comes from my automotive background.

    Side story; our washer/dryer unit has a bad bearing (covered by a service contract). To replace the sole bearing that supports the wash drum, you have to replace the drum, the mount bracket and a support. What abject stupidity. That is the reason Maytag went bankrupt.

    Phil
    It's better to try and fail, than fail to try.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Northwest Indiana
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Phil,

    I also plane the joists. The way I do it is, set the ledger to a snapped line, use the straightest pieces for the rim, snap a line on the side of the joists using the ledger and rim as alignment points. Plane to line, treat, build from there.

    Tom
    http://chicagocraftsmen.org/2011/06/261.html

    Check with the AHJ, what we say doesn't matter.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Bergen County, NJ
    Posts
    4,410

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by philthegreek View Post
    Greg likes the TEBO system, but what about serviceability?
    Not an issue. Ever. HIDFast doesn't work on steel anyway, but there is a way to deal with anything easily if you know what you're doing. ;)

    Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go out back to polish and shine some pressure treated lumber before we install it. LOL

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Michigan
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    7,543

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by philthegreek View Post
    I personally have not built a deck with 4x4 support posts in 20 yrs
    So what do you use?

    Quote Originally Posted by philthegreek View Post
    I would never place PT posts IN concrete. They are not ground contact rated and concrete IS ground contact.
    Phil
    PT posts are indeed ground contact rated. You just need to buy the right ones :) In fact they are commonly used for fence posts around here without any concrete at all. I have a fence on my own property that's more than 20 yrs old and the posts are just fine, no deterioration whatsoever. Just twisted.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Danbury area of western CT
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    4,441

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by dgbldr View Post
    So what do you use?



    PT posts are indeed ground contact rated. You just need to buy the right ones :) In fact they are commonly used for fence posts around here without any concrete at all. I have a fence on my own property that's more than 20 yrs old and the posts are just fine, no deterioration whatsoever. Just twisted.
    6x6 posts.

    Most commonly supplied 4x4 lumber here is NOT ground contact rated and such material is more expensive as it is not readily available here. The tags, which require a microscope to read, state not ground contact rated. That is easily remedied by using Creocoat when the stuff is dry.
    dg, fence posts are not structural and I would not take the chance. Again, goes to serviceability.

    Greg, that wasn't a dig on you, I know those things can't be used on steel.
    The main push of the marketing for that IS fast installation. I didn't knock it, just stated that I prefer ease of serviceability in the longer view, that's all.
    I've tried other "fast" systems and have been disappointed.

    Phil
    Last edited by philthegreek; 03-01-2012 at 04:27 PM.
    It's better to try and fail, than fail to try.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    4,685

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Jeremy, that's a good summation. And Phil makes a very good point re designing in such a way to be able to replace a bad component without tearing the whole deck apart.

    Tom, I respectfully disagree with your method of planing for a couple reasons.

    One is time. Simply put, that takes a lot of time. And I'm a strong advocate of using a hand power plane in lots of framing situations. But I can't see doing this.

    Another reason is the structural loading. The reason we crown material "up", is so when it is loaded it will not sag, but instead end up either flat, or still have some upward crown. Since any joist deflects once it is loaded, if you plane the tops of your joists by connecting the top edges of the rim and the ledger, aren't you essentially planing the joist straight? Stands to reason that when a load is applied, the deck will be slightly concave, instead of convex.

    Here's what I do... After crowning all joists up, group them by amount of crown. So working from the middle of the deck outward, the joist with the most crown will be in the center. Then the joists are arranged so that each one has less crown than its neighbor, until you get to the ends of the deck, where the last joists have the slightest crown of all.

    So what I've actually done is to make the entire deck framing have a "crown"; just one that runs across the joists. (And I use this technique with things like collar ties too. And yeah, people think I'm nuts... Lol)

    I'll then use the plane to knock down any localized "humps" in any joist. I'll also plane down a joist that has too much crown, ie, one that if left alone, would cause a "hump" in the decking itself, as it passes over that joist. But I'll plane it in such a way as to still keep the crown, but just reduce the amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Di View Post
    ...Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go out back to polish and shine some pressure treated lumber before we install it. LOL
    Yeah yeah yeah. We got pretty deep into it here. For an encore we could run all the decking through a thickness planer before we install it. Lol

    Tom
    Last edited by TSJHD1; 03-01-2012 at 11:22 AM.
    1) Unconsciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows not that he knows not. He is a fool. Shun him.
    2) Consciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows that he knows not. He is simple. Teach him.
    3) Unconsciously Competent: He knows, and knows not that he knows. He is asleep. Wake him.
    4) Consciously Competent: He knows, and knows that he knows. He is wise. Follow him.

    May we all endeavor to progress from not knowing that we know not, to knowing that we know.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Danbury area of western CT
    Posts
    4,441

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    In response to Tom and tom, I don't eliminate the crown. I even up the "bumps" so I don't have localized high spots. As Tom says, I want the crown, just uniform.

    Phil
    It's better to try and fail, than fail to try.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,543

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Tom, we don't plane ANY structural framing members for a simple reason. Inspectors. There are a number of them who take the view that once you plane a 2x8 it's no longer a 2x8. So if the approved drawings show a 2x8 and you want to plane it, you need to start with a 2x10.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Southern Illinois
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    I'd venture a guess that around here, somewhere in excess of 95% of decks sold are PT. Folks around here just don't have the coin for any higher-end products. Occassionally we'll get to build one with a Trex or similar surface, but the majority of them are all PT.

    I never use framing posts for railing. We set ground-contact PT 6x6 posts in concrete, build the deck, and attach the rail system to the top. Our local yards all store their PT lumber outside, so longer post lengths are all but worthless unless you're building fence.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    4,685

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by dgbldr View Post
    Inspectors.... who take the view that once you plane a 2x8 it's no longer a 2x8.
    Then I respectfully take the view that they're idiots! ;-)

    Tom
    1) Unconsciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows not that he knows not. He is a fool. Shun him.
    2) Consciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows that he knows not. He is simple. Teach him.
    3) Unconsciously Competent: He knows, and knows not that he knows. He is asleep. Wake him.
    4) Consciously Competent: He knows, and knows that he knows. He is wise. Follow him.

    May we all endeavor to progress from not knowing that we know not, to knowing that we know.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Sterling Heights, MI
    Posts
    4,664

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJHD1 View Post
    Here's what I do... After crowning all joists up, group them by amount of crown. So working from the middle of the deck outward, the joist with the most crown will be in the center. Then the joists are arranged so that each one has less crown than its neighbor, until you get to the ends of the deck, where the last joists have the slightest crown of all.

    So what I've actually done is to make the entire deck framing have a "crown"; just one that runs across the joists. (And I use this technique with things like collar ties too. And yeah, people think I'm nuts... Lol)

    I'll then use the plane to knock down any localized "humps" in any joist. I'll also plane down a joist that has too much crown, ie, one that if left alone, would cause a "hump" in the decking itself, as it passes over that joist. But I'll plane it in such a way as to still keep the crown, but just reduce the amount.



    Yeah yeah yeah. We got pretty deep into it here. For an encore we could run all the decking through a thickness planer before we install it. Lol

    Tom
    Nice effort Tom.

    I'd buy from you. I hope you detail all your efforts in your sales presentation: I know I would.
    Last edited by jimAKAblue; 03-01-2012 at 08:50 PM.

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