Are you a subscriber but don’t have an online account?

Register for full online access.

 
 
 
 
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 71
  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lancaster County, PA
    Posts
    653

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by greg di View Post
    disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer...

    If god forbid, someone still wants to install a pt deck, you absolutely need to tell them, in writing, what is going to happen and that it's completely beyond your control.

    You can go through all these motions and still get insane movement despite your best efforts. If someone is only paying for the drivel of a pt deck, you shouldn't have to put any time into culling, precutting and staging wood on site. Use better material, save all the labor and sell it that way. #2 wrc is not that much more and is a million times better (but still not great but it gives you a fighting chance).
    x 2........
    Contact us for all you mailbox post installation needs!

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,602

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Di View Post
    Not the Trex system.

    Light gauge steel C-Joists.
    Tell us more Greg. How do you keep light gauge C joists from rusting, particularly when you punch a zillion holes through the galv (i.e. screws)? And any light gauge C steel I've seen is interior grade, not heavy galvanized. Inquiring minds want to know :)

    And back to the OP issue, do you use some type of steel posts with that?

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Suburbia (Washington, DC area)
    Posts
    1,938

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    #2 WRC = western red cedar?
    Rots out in <10 years here, would never recommend for an exterior project that sees a lot of weather, like a deck or fence. Anyway needs the same warnings, caveats, and contract language.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    4,693

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Edited out the first part...didn't realize it had posted...

    As a customer, I could not sign any contract with the person who is supposed to be the 'Building Professional' that completely absolved him of responsibility for what the wood may do. If I was going against his recommendation of using a high-grade wood product, that would be one thing. But I believe he should be able to lead me towards a choice that would have good results. Agree to limit his entire liability, sure. But him have none? No way.

    Besides, as an example, I've heard contractors take the same type of stance when it comes to Azek: "Oh that stuff always shrinks up and you'll get gaps in the winter. It's just the nature of the product" Not true.

    Or the concrete contractor who says that the only thing he can guarantee your garage slab will do is get hard, and crack.

    I say find a contractor who knows his products better than that.


    As for posts, I would personally buy them from Lowe's, using their Top Choice product. I would hand-select them looking for straight grain. I would sticker them like I described above. I believe this would greatly reduce the chance of having issues.

    Just my professional opinions, based on my experience.

    Tom
    Last edited by TSJHD1; 02-29-2012 at 11:39 AM.
    1) Unconsciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows not that he knows not. He is a fool. Shun him.
    2) Consciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows that he knows not. He is simple. Teach him.
    3) Unconsciously Competent: He knows, and knows not that he knows. He is asleep. Wake him.
    4) Consciously Competent: He knows, and knows that he knows. He is wise. Follow him.

    May we all endeavor to progress from not knowing that we know not, to knowing that we know.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    4,693

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Di View Post
    Wow...that's a lot of effort. I could not imagine "babysitting" material like that for a deck...any deck...heck, any project.
    It's really not Greg. Actually, it's more of a mind-set, and a matter of planning ahead, and how well-organized you are.

    If you're the kind of contractor who only nails down the main parts of a job, just enough to prepare a contract and get a check, and then you go on to your other projects and don't think much more about that job until it's time to go do it, then yeah, my way won't work for you.

    But this could be a great idea for someone who builds lots of decks. (That's not a dig.) Knowing that you will eventually use the material, you could keep some stock of the common items on hand, like 4x4x12 PT and 2x10x16 PT. Maybe you have a shop and can store them there.

    And I'm betting that this approach could even be used as a selling point, showing the customer that you care enough to go these few extra steps to help set yourself apart from the competition, and hopefully put out a better product as a result.



    I managed the framing of (4) 4000sf + upscale townhomes couple years ago. The third level had a cantilevered deck, 4' x 22'. It was framed with treated 2x12's, 12' long. So they actually formed an 8' section of the interior framing. I simply could not have these joists shrinking down 3/8" over time, especially since they mated right up to floor trusses, which do not shrink.

    So first off, I spotted this issue early on, and so I ordered the material right in the beginning of the job, broke them down and put the correct quantity needed in each garage. By the time they were needed, they had shrunk about 1/4", which made it a whole lot easier than trying to guess how much higher to frame that part of the floor. As an added benefit, the boards were quite a bit lighter too!

    And to help me with the planning of things like this, I have an extensive 'pre-construction' checklist that prompts me to look for any treated framing that could benefit from being ordered well ahead of time, for the reasons I'm describing.

    Tom
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by TSJHD1; 02-29-2012 at 12:11 PM.
    1) Unconsciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows not that he knows not. He is a fool. Shun him.
    2) Consciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows that he knows not. He is simple. Teach him.
    3) Unconsciously Competent: He knows, and knows not that he knows. He is asleep. Wake him.
    4) Consciously Competent: He knows, and knows that he knows. He is wise. Follow him.

    May we all endeavor to progress from not knowing that we know not, to knowing that we know.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,602

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Tom, not quite sure what you mean here. Let's say you need 10 posts for a small deck. You buy 12 posts and let them sit unrestrained for a month. 6 of them warp. Now what?

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    2,458

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJHD1 View Post
    It's really not Greg. Actually, it's more of a mind-set, and a matter of planning ahead, and how well-organized you are.

    If you're the kind of contractor who only nails down the main parts of a job, just enough to prepare a contract and get a check, and then you go on to your other projects and don't think much more about that job until it's time to go do it, then yeah, my way won't work for you.

    But this could be a great idea for someone who builds lots of decks. (That's not a dig.) Knowing that you will eventually use the material, you could keep some stock of the common items on hand, like 4x4x12 PT and 2x10x16 PT. Maybe you have a shop and can store them there.

    And I'm betting that this approach could even be used as a selling point, showing the customer that you care enough to go these few extra steps to help set yourself apart from the competition, and hopefully put out a better product as a result.



    I managed the framing of (4) 4000sf + upscale townhomes couple years ago. The third level had a cantilevered deck, 4' x 22'. It was framed with treated 2x12's, 12' long. So they actually formed an 8' section of the interior framing. I simply could not have these joists shrinking down 3/8" over time, especially since they mated right up to floor trusses, which do not shrink.

    So first off, I spotted this issue early on, and so I ordered the material right in the beginning of the job, broke them down and put the correct quantity needed in each garage. By the time they were needed, they had shrunk about 1/4", which made it a whole lot easier than trying to guess how much higher to frame that part of the floor. As an added benefit, the boards were quite a bit lighter too!

    And to help me with the planning of things like this, I have an extensive 'pre-construction' checklist that prompts me to look for any treated framing that could benefit from being ordered well ahead of time, for the reasons I'm describing.

    Tom
    One thing i always do with the joists, rim etc material is separate them and get them drying out. It gets the shrinkage over some and it makes the pt sooooo much lighter. The little time and effort up front is repaid with much lighter wood. It's also dry instead of soaking wet. It's a much nicer experience. Pt for rails, posts or balusters is a waste. It is guaranteed to look terrible and it will wear poorly. There are just far too many options to settle for pt

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    157

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by dgbldr View Post
    Tell us more Greg. How do you keep light gauge C joists from rusting, particularly when you punch a zillion holes through the galv (i.e. screws)? And any light gauge C steel I've seen is interior grade, not heavy galvanized. Inquiring minds want to know :)

    And back to the OP issue, do you use some type of steel posts with that?
    You can get them in 12ga. Thats almost an 1/8" thick, and up to 14" wide. That deck isn't going anywhere.
    Last edited by N.E.Builder; 02-29-2012 at 02:17 PM.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Northwest Indiana
    Posts
    5,576

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Is there a manufacture that makes a self drilling screw for decking with steel framing? Color matched/stainless steel?

    Tom
    http://chicagocraftsmen.org/2011/06/261.html

    Check with the AHJ, what we say doesn't matter.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Bergen County, NJ
    Posts
    4,410

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by TSJHD1 View Post
    It's really not Greg. Actually, it's more of a mind-set, and a matter of planning ahead, and how well-organized you are.
    Not interested...Birds of a different feather I suppose.

    It's not about shirking responsibility. It's about predisposing the customer to real life. You can tell them all you want, but unless it's in writing, it never happened.

    We do 40+ projects a year and no amount of organization would make all that prep cost effective or efficient for us.

    DG, it's too complicated to discuss the steel here. If you want to call me, we can talk about it. Long story short, there are far more benefits to using steel on the exterior than wood and as someone who cares about what I install, this is the better way to deliver a superior product without going through all of Tom's processes that still don't guarantee much of anything.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,602

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Thanks Greg, I don't really need a primer on steel. I've looked at it and discussed at length with some local deck builders. Yes steel is better and we love framing (interior) with steel.

    On exterior, there are only 2 ways to keep it from rusting:
    1. Don't drill any holes in it and treat the cut ends. I haven't seen a viable screw-less system.
    2. Make it thick so rust doesn't matter (except it will look ugly), as NE Builder suggests. That makes it VERY labor intensive. I don't want to put 1,000 self drilling screws through 12 ga. steel.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Bergen County, NJ
    Posts
    4,410

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by dgbldr View Post
    Thanks Greg, I don't really need a primer on steel. I've looked at it and discussed at length with some local deck builders. Yes steel is better and we love framing (interior) with steel.

    On exterior, there are only 2 ways to keep it from rusting:
    1. Don't drill any holes in it and treat the cut ends. I haven't seen a viable screw-less system.
    2. Make it thick so rust doesn't matter (except it will look ugly), as NE Builder suggests. That makes it VERY labor intensive. I don't want to put 1,000 self drilling screws through 12 ga. steel.
    You are misinformed. Maybe you do need a primer...LOL

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,602

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    OK, enlighten me.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    4,693

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Quote Originally Posted by dgbldr View Post
    Tom, not quite sure what you mean here. Let's say you need 10 posts for a small deck. You buy 12 posts and let them sit unrestrained for a month. 6 of them warp. Now what?
    There won't be a 50% loss. Maybe 10. I mean, it all starts with the quality of the material you're buying, and that could be a major difference in our discussion here.

    If I need 10 posts, I'm going to buy however many extra I believe I will need, so that I get 10 that will be acceptable for the project. And there's other details to consider too.

    For example, first off, I don't build decks that use the support posts as the rail posts. I like to use 6x6's for supports, because 4x4's are too "spindly", and 6x6's can be "let in" to the rim. And this way the support posts will be restrained at both ends, so the "stickering" that I'm talking about wouldn't even need to be done with the 6x6's.

    I do like 4x4's for the rail posts, but we're only talking about 4' pieces. So you buy 12' posts, and plan to only get 2 pieces out of each. Buy some extra, and return what you can't use.

    I guess I just don't see the difficulty in this process that some do. I can say without reservation that we have 3 local resources for treated lumber, and the material they sell is of fine quality. Two of them keep it indoors.

    Tom
    1) Unconsciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows not that he knows not. He is a fool. Shun him.
    2) Consciously Incompetent: He knows not, and knows that he knows not. He is simple. Teach him.
    3) Unconsciously Competent: He knows, and knows not that he knows. He is asleep. Wake him.
    4) Consciously Competent: He knows, and knows that he knows. He is wise. Follow him.

    May we all endeavor to progress from not knowing that we know not, to knowing that we know.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,602

    Default Re: Deck post technique

    Yes, quality of lumber is the issue, that's the whole point of the thread.

    The only PT kept indoor around here is at the big boxes, and those are already 90% bad at the store. The PT my yard delivers to the site is much better than that, but not real good.

    The only strategy I have found effective (not just deck stuff but in general) is to have the PT lumber delivered just in time, sopping wet. We nail it in place quickly so it's restrained while it dries. We have had good results with that. As you pointed out, that doesn't work if shrinkage is an issue.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts