SYP to be downgraded by 30%

[Dick Seibert]

All you guys using SYP be prepared to increase lumber sizing or decrease spans, it hasn't hit our DF yet but do to the lower quality of lumber and lightweight construction it won't surprise me if it does. This is suppose to hit with the adoption of the 2012 codes..

[ThingOfBeauty]

Anyone know how much SYP is visually graded vs. machine graded? The decrease applies to visually inspected but not to machine.

[Dick Seibert]

Here is some inside information from an engineer at the American forest Products lab:

It’s not a rumor. The final discussion will be taking place on Oct 20 with a publication of their decision on Oct 21. I expect SYP visual graded lumber values (not just MOE) to be reduced up to 30%. The million dollar question is, when will this be implemented. As I’m sure you are aware the span tables in the code could be invalidated once they publish the new standards. I personally expect the change to be implemented in 21-90 days after the announcement. The rumor on the streets is that it will be sooner rather then latter. No one that I have talked to expects the change to be implemented any latter then 90 days. We should know something in about 1 week.

About 1 year ago there were full scale truss test performed by our industry. During the test the lumber kept failing before it was suppose to. Our industry turned the test result over to the So Pine folks and suggested they look into it. They found our results to be a valid concern and took over there own investigation. The results/recommendations of their investigation are to be reported on Oct 21. The problems stem from new growth lumber and brash failures. The timber is being grown so fast that the old published values are not being met. MSR lumber should not be affected by this change from what I have been told so far

[Bob Dylan]

Wood gets worse and steel gets better. And you can remelt old steel and make new steel. Try that with wood.

What's not to like?

[MarkMc]

And you can remelt old steel and make new steel. Try that with wood.

Um, isn't that how it's been done in the forest for a few Milena now? ;

[charles]

30% makes me think SYP will be on par with SPF.

[Allan Edwards]

Article about this:

http://www.builderonline.com/wood/tr...cid=botw101711

[Lavrans]

Interesting article.

I do find it amusing that "industry groups" want a phase in period. If the material is not as strong as it has been considered, for whatever reason, then a "phase in period" helps only those groups, but damages their customers and end-users.

[charles]

30% makes me think SYP will be on par with SPF.

Looks worse than SPF. Am I reading this right?

[ThingOfBeauty]

We used some SYP 2x12s on a job, I was on site and ran over to see the stamp--luckily MSR so we're OK.
In our area, SYP is the 'upgrade' lumber you use when SPF isn't strong enough. Also pretty much all our trusses are SYP as well as all our PT lumber.
This could end up changing a lot about certain projects.

[sly_karma]

Wood gets worse and steel gets better. And you can remelt old steel and make new steel. Try that with wood.

You registered with Built Green or something?

[oldschool]

Interesting article.

I do find it amusing that "industry groups" want a phase in period. If the material is not as strong as it has been considered, for whatever reason, then a "phase in period" helps only those groups, but damages their customers and end-users.

Absolutely right, Lavrans. Similar to the stricter energy codes: a cheaper house, but costs more to condition. So many builders live by getting their projects to the minimum, or die by having to go beyond the minimum. Builders should be consultants, educate their clients on the best-practice, and sell the better materials and techniques. There's no reason this day and age why our structures shouldn't last for 100+ years. It bothers me to see all the failures in the 1-15 year old houses these days.

[clydewater]

Absolutely right, Lavrans. Similar to the stricter energy codes: a cheaper house, but costs more to condition. So many builders live by getting their projects to the minimum, or die by having to go beyond the minimum. Builders should be consultants, educate their clients on the best-practice, and sell the better materials and techniques. There's no reason this day and age why our structures shouldn't last for 100+ years. It bothers me to see all the failures in the 1-15 year old houses these days.

The problem is most consumers are too damn cheap. They will give a job to a guy that is $50 less, even though he is not going to provide anywhere near the same quality or level of service as the person who is more expensive.
Why do you think WalMart and other Big Box Stores do so well. People are unwilling to pay that little bit extra for more value.
Thanks for letting me vent
Rich

[Michael K Chotiner]

The following article by our own Ted Cushman was recently published in Coastal Contractor:

Southern Pine: What’s Next? ~

The American Lumber Standards Committee (ALSC) held a meeting on Thursday, January 5, to hear feedback from lumber producers, users, and other affected parties regarding a proposal to reduce the key strength values of Southern Pine lumber.

The Southern Pine Inspection Bureau (SPIB), tasked with third-party verification and lumber strength testing in the Southern Pine industry, has proposed a reduction of 25 to 30 percent in published values for deflection and ultimate strength for all grades and sizes of 2x dimension lumber in the Southern Pine market, after testing of hundreds of Number Two 2x4 specimens showed a significant decline in the strength of the 2x4 stock. If the published values for lumber engineering characteristics are revised downward, that will result in a reduction of allowable spans in official span tables for Southern Pine, which will affect builders, framers, and deck builders. Reduction in the strength values for 2x lumber would also have a major impact in the wood truss industry.

In reaction to SPIB’s proposal, other voices in the industry are urging a slower and more carefully considered response to the new test values — saying that it’s too early to make a broad modification before other sizes and grades of Southern Pine have been comprehensively tested, that a revision of grading practices rather than a change in span tables might be a better way to adjust, and that time should be allowed to phase in any modifications so as not to disrupt projects already in the pipeline.

The current, existing engineering values and span tables for Southern Pine were set back in the 1980s after an industry-wide “In-Grade” testing program, which involved at least six years of lumber testing in all sizes and grades, and another four years of industry discussion and negotiation about grade rules and engineering values. This time around, only one size and grade of Southern Pine has yet to undergo a comprehensive series of tests, and only a few months have passed since those test values were made public. But a full program of sampling and testing of other sizes and grades has now begun — not just for Southern Pine, but for other major wood species (including Western lumber such as Douglas Fir, and Eastern pine, spruce, and fir). The Board of Directors of the ALSC has the authority to adopt an immediate change to Southern Pine engineering values if it so chooses; but given the incomplete information on the table today and the far-reaching consequences of any sudden change, it appears more likely that the ALSC will wait to learn more about the nation’s lumber stock before adopting a comprehensive revision.

_________________________________________

The day after Ted's article was filed, Prosales Information Service reported "ALSC Approves Design Value Changes for Southern Pine 2x4s" [http://www.prosalesmagazine.com/indu...cleID=1796181] The take-away from the article is that while ALSC has made a decision regarding 2x4s, methods for redefining design values for larger dimension SYP lumber are still under discussion.

While the ProSales article examines the emerging issues related to these developments for lumber dealers and others in the industry, we'd like to know what builders and remodelers are thinking.


*Are you following this story?
*What values are you using for projects still on the drawing board?
*Are you in contact with your truss suppliers on their response to the news?
*Are you worried about your own liability in projects that include SYP lumber and if yes, what
are you doing to protect yourself?

[Dick Seibert]

A building inspector has been following this closely, his post yesterday:

The Board of Review sent out an email today. Basically they did agree to reduce the design values of SYP #2 2x4's at this time. Remember this was all based on the results of breaking about 200 #2 2x4's. They are requesting broader testing as soon as possible and are advising design professionals to bear the requested reductions in mind... some reduction is coming down the pike. SPF is under early scrutiny as well. It sounds like a new round of In Grade testing may be beginning.

You can follow all of his posts here .