Spray Insulation in California

[300Carpenter]

Hi Everyone,

I have a 500 square foot first floor remodel we are working on here in San Francisco, land of the green! The client is interested in spray insulation, as a way to improve the building envelope. Here are the details:

2x4 walls, and only 3 are exterior, 4th wall faces garage
Property line walls will get double rock and Green Glue for noise control with neighbors.
Ceiling will be r-19, single rock
New forced air furnace to condition the space
Rear south facing wall gets stripped down, new paper, windows/doors and then new cement shingles(to match upper level of house)
Performance is more priority than price, but of course there is a limit!

I am not sure one the following:
1. which type of spray insulation to use, open cell or closed
2. Do it yourself kit or sub-contractor, it is about 500 square feet of walls to be filled
3. Does this stuff cause any breath-ability issues? The back of the house gets a ton of sunlight and faces south. I don't want to create a mold incubator.

Any experience on this one? Anything else I need to consider on this decision?

Thanks!

[rickatoid]

I have used Icylene for all of the house we build and any remodel work we do no matter what the size. I would hire a company and have it done, rather than you trying to do it right. We are able to comtinue working in the area being sprayed 5 minutes after they are done, so there is no health related issues at all. I have a few names or you can use the people we use. Give me a call 510 282 5513. Rick

[Bluewoodrock]

I We are able to comtinue working in the area being sprayed 5 minutes after they are done, so there is no health related issues at all.

Dude you need to read up on spray foam- alot. I'm a fan of the product but that's just plain dangerous.

[Martin Holladay]

When installing spray foam, the work area needs to be separated from other areas with polyethylene containment, and negative-pressure ventilation needs to be established and operated during the spraying and for several hours afterwords.

After you read a few horror stories, you might take these precautions more seriously:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...-odor-problems

[frenchie]

Before anyone suggest Icynene is a special case - read the MSDS. 24 hours before occupancy, 30 days before zero emissions.

[Dick Seibert]

300Carpenter:

Read the California Green Code:

SECTION 804
POLLUTANT CONTROL

804.1 Indoor air quality (IAQ) during construction. Maintain IAQ as provided in Sections 804.1.2 and 804.1.3.

804.1.2 Temporary ventilation. Provide temporary ventilation during construction in accordance with Section 121 of the California Energy Code, CCR, Title 24, Part 6, and Chapter 4 of CCR, Title 8, and as follows:

1. Ventilation during construction shall be achieved through openings in the building shell using fans to produce a minimum of three air changes per hour.

2. During dust-producing operations, protect supply and return HVAC system openings from dust.

3. The permanent HVAC system shall only be used during construction if necessary to condition the building within the required temperature range for material and equipment installation. If the HVAC system is used during construction, use return air filters with a Minimum Efficiency Reporting Value (MERV) of 8, based on ASHRAE 52.2-1999, or an average efficiency of 30 percent based on ASHRAE 52.1-1992. Replace all filters with MERV 13 filters by Section 804.2.3 immediately prior to occupancy.

4. If the building is occupied during demolition or construction, meet or exceed the recommended Control Measures of the Sheet Metal and Air Conditioning National Contractors Association (SMACNA) IAQ Guidelines for Occupied Buildings under Construction, 1995, Chapter 3.

804.2 IAQ postconstruction. After construction ends, with all interior finishes installed, flush-out the building by supplying continuous ventilation with all air handling units at their maximum outdoor air rate for at least 14 days while maintaining an internal temperature of at least 60°F, and relative humidity no higher than 60 percent. Occupancy may start after 7 days, provided flush-out continues for the full 14 days. Do not “bake out” the building by increasing the temperature of the space. (If continuous ventilation is not possible, flush-out must total the
equivalent of 14 days of maximum outdoor air.)

804.3 Covering of duct openings and protection of mechanical equipment during construction. At the time of rough installation, or during storage on the construction site and until final startup of the heating and cooling equipment, all duct and other related air distribution component openings shall be covered with tape, plastic, sheetmetal or other methods acceptable to the enforcing agency to reduce the amount of dust or debris which may collect in the system.

804.4 Finish material pollutant control. Finish materials shall comply with Sections 804.4.1 through 804.4.4.

804.4.1 Adhesives. Adhesives used on the project shall meet the requirements of the following standards.

1. Adhesives, adhesive bonding primers and adhesive primers shall comply with Table 804.4.1.

2. Aerosol adhesives shall meet the requirements of California Code of Regulations, Title 17, commencing with Section 94507, http://ccr.oal.ca.gov/.

This is in addition to CalOSHA requirements, and since spray foams contain an aerosol be sure to read Title 17 §94507 in the above link

[300Carpenter]

Any other suggestions besides Icylene? Seems like a pain in the butt, I was thinking about one of those DIY kits, anyone use one of those? I think I have about 400 square feet of exterior walls to insulate.

Thanks for the help so far.

[300Carpenter]

Also, this job is a remodel. The family is living upstairs! I don't want to cause anyone to have to move out for 30 days. I guess I wasn't clear in my initial post.

[davenorthup]

I think for 400 Ft and a low knowledge base on application, I would just find a foam guy to swing by after another job. Get it prepped and they'll be in and out in no time.

Even here we can get guys to do rim joists (small jobs) for not too much money. They just fit them in between larger jobs.

I'd sit down with the installer and client and make sure everyone is on the same page before starting.

But that is just me.

[Bill Robinson]

You say the client is interested in spray insulation, why?

'Cause of what they have read and heard?

SPF is a good product as are the other insulation types when installed correctly.

I would look at cellulose or fiberglass against an air barrier.

Might not be "high tech" like the spray foams but the air quality issues seem to be better in this case.

And anyway, the climate there is not so demanding as in the more extreme heating and cooling climates.

Maybe consider this as an educational opportunity, for you and the client.

[rickatoid]

Not all sprayed foams are the same. Icynene foams are water based spray with no Health or dangers. We have been using this foam for over ten years now. Please read up on all the different foams and you will see there are major differences in every one of them.

Buildings With Icynene, Dangers of Airborne Irritants Are Shown to Be Reduced

Those concerned about healthy air can breathe a little easier in buildings insulated with the water-blown products offered by Icynene. Dangers associated with certain forms of insulation, such as long-term VOC emissions, were not observed in Icynene, according to extensive testing.

In fact, Icynene products can actually help to improve indoor air quality. People with allergies, asthma and certain chemical sensitivities have often found that, in buildings with Icynene, dangers of respiratory distress caused by natural airborne irritants are reduced.

Pollutants and airborne allergens can penetrate even the smallest gaps in other forms of insulation. Airborne moisture can also infiltrate traditional insulation, sometimes leading to mold, which releases spores and potentially toxic substances called mycotoxins. Thanks to the superior air seal created by Icynene, dangers of inhaling these toxins and irritants are greatly reduced.

For all these reasons, Icynene is highly recommended for spaces occupied by people with allergies, asthma and other particular respiratory issues. In fact, Icynene was used to improve indoor air quality as part of the American Lung Association's "Health House" program.ams are the same. Ic

[Bluewoodrock]

Not all sprayed foams are the same. Icynene foams are water based spray with no Health or dangers. We have been using this foam for over ten years now. Please read up on all the different foams and you will see there are major differences in every one of them.

All spray foams are virtually the same. Icynene is sprayed polyurethane foam, and chemically it is virtually identical to all other spray foams

Those concerned about healthy air can breathe a little easier in buildings insulated with the water-blown products offered by Icynene. Dangers associated with certain forms of insulation, such as long-term VOC emissions, were not observed in Icynene, according to extensive testing.

In fact, Icynene products can actually help to improve indoor air quality. People with allergies, asthma and certain chemical sensitivities have often found that, in buildings with Icynene, dangers of respiratory distress caused by natural airborne irritants are reduced.

For all these reasons, Icynene is highly recommended for spaces occupied by people with allergies, asthma and other particular respiratory issues. In fact, Icynene was used to improve indoor air quality as part of the American Lung Association's "Health House" program.ams are the same. Ic

This is true for any properly applied spray foam. The main concern is during application. No matter what type of SPF your using it isn't safe to be in the work area without proper respiratory protection. Improperly applied sprayfoam can lead to big air quality issues, no matter what the brand.

[Piffin]

closed cell definitely

It will also enhance the quiet.

No problems after 24 hours for breathing

[Piffin]

"All spray foams are virtually the same. Icynene is sprayed polyurethane foam, and chemically it is virtually identical to all other spray foams"

Balony!!!!!
Not only are they different chemically, but the icy is open celled while the poly is closed celled.
The icy provides approx R3.7/inch while the poly is closer to R7

[Bluewoodrock]

"All spray foams are virtually the same. Icynene is sprayed polyurethane foam, and chemically it is virtually identical to all other spray foams"

Balony!!!!!
Not only are they different chemically, but the icy is open celled while the poly is closed celled.
The icy provides approx R3.7/inch while the poly is closer to R7

OK your right- More specifically all open cell foams are virtually the same and all closed cell foams are virtually the same. All spray foams are 50% MDI by volume when processed correctly, and all spray foams are polyurethane based. Not sure what you mean by "icy" and "poly". Your R value numbers are correct. No balogna