Door installation pricing

[texastutt]

OK. I've quoted out a homes to redo doors, jambs and casings. I have not gotten a single one of them, I was at the local lumber yard talking to the estimator... Get this.

There are a few trim suppliers in Toronto, that charge for door and trim (and that price the estimator did not know) and pay $30 an opening, and they are hitting Brantford hard. This explains a lot of why I'm seeing 20 year-olds with a DeWalt on a saw horses doing door trim, and I bet they won't have all ten digits when they turn 50.

Very disheartening.

[archmolding]

I've heard of similar pricing. Mostly for tract work. But yeah it's disheartening none the less.
Lock smiths locally charge $25 installing locksets boring extra!
Funny how no one wants to pay for a quality door install.

[JayNos]

How many can they do in a day? Gary talks about the two brothers he learned from that could make a damn good living off $30 per door...at least, I think that was the story.

[texastutt]

Jay that was the '70's not 2011!

[dave_k]

There are a few trim suppliers in Toronto, that charge for door and trim (and that price the estimator did not know) and pay $30 an opening, and they are hitting Brantford hard.

$30/opening for what? Prehungs? split jambs? pre-machined? undrecut? Or do they just send them out with a slab and lineal and have at it? $30/opening for residential door from lineal dates back to 1984 in london.

This explains a lot of why I'm seeing 20 year-olds with a DeWalt on a saw horses doing door trim, and I bet they won't have all ten digits when they turn 50.

Very disheartening.

Covers lunch, transportation and a couple of cool ones after work, maybe a bag of weed but what about retirement?

[GaryJR]

You're pursuing the wrong market. Otherwise jump on board and do hack work for hack dollars.

You don't open up a high end car dealership in a low income neighborhood.

[texastutt]

Yea, well Gary that's my point... is it just may be time to move on...
But I know the kitchen market in Toronto's gone to the immigrant shops and my finisher now does more work in Dave K's neck of the woods than Toronto (he's in Oakville), and he's located less than an hour from TO, but nearly 2+ from London.

Toronto's supposed to be a major world city.

[dave_k]

After every recession I've experienced the prices get cheaper, competition gets tighter, the government expects more tax collecting and record keeping and the lower end of the market attracts less professional trades.

I am shocked at the current retail market. Even the low ball scummy retail contractors I wouldn't work for in the 2000's are now priced out of the market by even scummier contractors. The jobs are being run by "contract supers". The last job I was on the super was a tile setter who I know as being a real hack and having no knowlege outside of tile setting and no organizational skills. Today he's running 3 or 4 projects at a time spanning from Toronto to windsor with a surfer dude helper. It's a total clusterfu@k.

I know a lot of guys have just decided to call it quits rather than try to compete with these clowns. A lot of millwork companies are barely hanging on. I was talking to a local guy a couple of weeks ago who has a 15 man shop. His delivery truck was condemmed and pulled off the road. he doesn't have the cash or credit to buy a new one. I know he wanted to cash out 5 years ago, I think he's drained now and just hanging on.

[GaryJR]

There's a lot of people with a lot of money out there. It's still booming and it always will. You're pursuing the wrong market.

I think most guys never focused on there long term market strategy and never thought about what type of client they worked for. They just took jobs as they came, and modified their price to fit the project/clients finances, made some money and was happy they were busy & working.

Now that the bulk of the middle of the road work is drying up they are scrambling, when in fact people above the middle of the road with money are still spending it.

A quality orientated company can never compete with the lower end work, it's not going to happen. You can't bring your mentally down to the lower end work, you will still do a great job and lose money, when the hack company is long gone and doesn't lose a moment sleep. It's a totally different mind set to do fast past mediocre work.

[Gary Katz]

The stories I've told about the Sheifer brothers were form 25 years ago. We used to pay Royal $12.00/door for hangs (Scribe, Butt, Bevel, & Bore). A few years later we were paying $20/door for similar work--this was in apartment/condo developments and hotels. I remember by then a flush bolt install was $10.00--you could make more money installing two flushbolts than you could hanging a door--don't ask me why. A few years later it was $30.00/door in 'custom' tract homes.

Pre-fits were the same story. When we started in apartments they paid us $7.50. Today for a new jamb, door, and casing, in a custom 'lived in' home, it's more like $150, especially with stairs, cleanup, etc.

But Dave K is definitely right: as recessions drag on, prices drop precipitously, those people go out of business, other replace them, they go out of business, the recession usually ends and the beach is somewhat clean. But this recession isn't ending. I hear now that even the banks are having a hard time--can you imagine? Now that the gov't isn't subsidizing their losses...the poor guys...oh, wait, where I am going with this...
Gary

[Kent Brobeck]

But Dave K is definitely right: as recessions drag on, prices drop precipitously, those people go out of business, other replace them, they go out of business, the recession usually ends and the beach is somewhat clean. But this recession isn't ending. I hear now that even the banks are having a hard time--can you imagine? Now that the gov't isn't subsidizing their losses...the poor guys...oh, wait, where I am going with this...
Gary

Hey Gary! didn't you say no politics on this forum? Go over to trade talk if you want to throw bricks! ;)

[texastutt]

Yea well Kent it's not just US, and Canada it's the EU, eastern Europe and beyond... Despite what anyone says this one is a big global issue.

[timraleigh]

...even hitting teachers (a well paid occupation in Canada) here in Ontario. I heard today that unemployment rate among those qualified to teach in the province is at 24%.
Tim

[dave_k]

...even hitting teachers (a well paid occupation in Canada) here in Ontario. I heard today that unemployment rate among those qualified to teach in the province is at 24%.
Tim

Teachers are one of those professions that go through real booms and busts. They go through periods where they train too many for the demographics so they reduce the numbers going through teachers college then there aren't enough to satisfy demand so they increase the training numbers. it happens with engineers and Nurses too. In 1982 you couldn't buy a job as a civil engineer and in 1990's all the nursing grads were going off to the USA to work. Were in the same boat again with Nursing grads in some provinces.

[davenorthup]

We currently have a surplus of real estate agents these days in the US. Seems every one was a realtor in the late 90's - 2000's. I see many dropping off as they should. I have never heard so many horrible realtor stories as I have in the past 6 months.