DeWalt 20V Cordless Batteries

[Carapace79]

Greetings everybody!

So, I was peeking at the new slide-style DeWalt 20V batteries, and can't help but notice the similarities to the Makita 18V line. Looks like they share a lot of the same plastic parts, makes me wonder if they came out of the same factory? Though I imagine the Li-Ion cells are proprietary.... Just funny to see some familiar parts. The Circular Saw looks eerily similar to the Makita as well.

Also, an interesting marketing move for DeWalt, as far as calling their line 20V instead of 18V (12V vs. 10.8V anybody?....), I wonder how many handy homeowners will walk out of the big box store with a yellow tool because it has a higher "voltage"?.....

http://dewalt.com/20vmax

[Lettusbee67]

Regarding the 20v vs the 18v designation, Dewalt claims they wanted to avoid confusion for customers who are buying replacement batteries. So they are calling their new line 20v.

I still believe the 20v is going to sell more to the bigger is better crowd.

[ThingOfBeauty]

At the bottom of the DeWalt web page linked to above is this note:
"With respect to 12V MAX*: Maximum initial battery voltage (measured without a workload) is 12 volts. Nominal voltage is 10.8.
With respect to 20V MAX*:Maximum initial battery voltage (measured without a workload) is 20 volts. Nominal voltage is 18. "

[chuckwoodchuck]

More "Marketing" from big Yellow. How many different 18V tools can they come out with in a few years?

[Sean Tool Nut]

Greetings everybody!

So, I was peeking at the new slide-style DeWalt 20V batteries, and can't help but notice the similarities to the Makita 18V line. Looks like they share a lot of the same plastic parts, makes me wonder if they came out of the same factory? Though I imagine the Li-Ion cells are proprietary.... Just funny to see some familiar parts. The Circular Saw looks eerily similar to the Makita as well.

Also, an interesting marketing move for DeWalt, as far as calling their line 20V instead of 18V (12V vs. 10.8V anybody?....), I wonder how many handy homeowners will walk out of the big box store with a yellow tool because it has a higher "voltage"?.....

http://dewalt.com/20vmax

Carapace, where did you get the impression that they were using proprietary cells? Was it just the 20v designation?

We recently attended DeWalt training and were very hesitant to buy into the 20V line. I, and my GM, were both skeptical and saw it as pure marketing BS as I'm sure most of you do.

After understanding why they couldn't pack 3.0ah into the old batteries and needed to develop a new line to accomplish a fat pack lithium batt I was somewhat open to the line. Some of the features (slim handles, 3 lights, one handed bit loading, etc) should have been included on the 18 volt lithium line, but seemingly were engineering and design oversights. Using those features as marketing fother(sp?) for the new line isn't THAT powerful if you ask me. Some things like designed and manufactured in house motors, transmissions, etc on the premium units are worthwhile but ain't so sexy for ad campaigns.

The 20V max designation does make sense when you consider the possible mess that might be created with tons of guys asking for their "18 volt lithium batteries" and there are two different styles available.

[GregBradley]

Black and Decker renamed their homeowner 18v Li batteries to 20v. It seems Dewalt is following along with their sister company.

5 LI cells is 18v regardless of what you call it just as 3 cells is 10.8v even if you call it 12v max.

Should have been less confusion than there was when we had 15 cell NiCad being called 18v along with 5 cell Li.

[Carapace79]

Carapace, where did you get the impression that they were using proprietary cells? Was it just the 20v designation?

Hi Sean! I remember back when Milwaukee and Makita were just starting to wade into the Li-Ion pool, and a tool rep was telling me how many of the tool companies were developing their Li-Ion batteries in-house, something to do with the different chemistries and trade secrets. I wonder if we are back to the Ni-CAD days when all of the power tool batteries were coming out of two factories and simply stuffed into different shells?

I do understand that the 20v versus 18v is marketing, they all have the same number of cells.

Anyways, I just thought it was funny that (from looking at the photos) that the DeWalt batteries would seem to be sharing many parts with the Makita batteries.

I did notice that the DeWalt website states its charger takes an hour to achieve a full charge on a 3.0ah battery, that's double what my Makita charger takes (30 minutes).

[Sean Tool Nut]

Hi Sean! I remember back when Milwaukee and Makita were just starting to wade into the Li-Ion pool, and a tool rep was telling me how many of the tool companies were developing their Li-Ion batteries in-house, something to do with the different chemistries and trade secrets. I wonder if we are back to the Ni-CAD days when all of the power tool batteries were coming out of two factories and simply stuffed into different shells?

I do understand that the 20v versus 18v is marketing, they all have the same number of cells.

Anyways, I just thought it was funny that (from looking at the photos) that the DeWalt batteries would seem to be sharing many parts with the Makita batteries.

I did notice that the DeWalt website states its charger takes an hour to achieve a full charge on a 3.0ah battery, that's double what my Makita charger takes (30 minutes).

No one is making their own batteries aside from maybe panasonic who I believe just sold their batt division (or maybe they bought someone else). As far as the charger taking a bit longer than milwaukee or makita, it comes down to choice and desalt claims their market research shows that you guys, yes you, lol, want a battery that will get more charge cycles, not charge quicker. The two characteristics have an indirect relationship, pick one or the other.....

[Carapace79]

No one is making their own batteries aside from maybe panasonic who I believe just sold their batt division (or maybe they bought someone else). As far as the charger taking a bit longer than milwaukee or makita, it comes down to choice and desalt claims their market research shows that you guys, yes you, lol, want a battery that will get more charge cycles, not charge quicker. The two characteristics have an indirect relationship, pick one or the other.....

Yeah, my memory is that most of the batteries were produced by Panasonic (Panasonic, Makita) and Sanyo (DeWalt, Milwaukee, Porter Cable, etc...).

That's interesting what you say about charge time and battery longevity. Most of the time I'll only drain one, possibly two batteries in a day so the longer charge time wouldn't be a problem. But there are other days (using my circ saw and/or recip) when I'll go through 4 or more battery charges, I guess if I had the DeWalt I would buy more batteries and chargers and hope that they really do have a longer life span.

My Makita 18v LXT batteries seem to be lasting me roughly 2-4 years.

[Sean Tool Nut]

Yeah, my memory is that most of the batteries were produced by Panasonic (Panasonic, Makita) and Sanyo (DeWalt, Milwaukee, Porter Cable, etc...).

That's interesting what you say about charge time and battery longevity. Most of the time I'll only drain one, possibly two batteries in a day so the longer charge time wouldn't be a problem. But there are other days (using my circ saw and/or recip) when I'll go through 4 or more battery charges, I guess if I had the DeWalt I would buy more batteries and chargers and hope that they really do have a longer life span.

My Makita 18v LXT batteries seem to be lasting me roughly 2-4 years.

We can get into some verrrry dorky battery talk, but I"m not qualified for it. Check out some RC car forums, or flashlight forums and you'll get a great education on that stuff. Or give my GM a shout, he's slowly becoming the king nerd in this dept.

[Carapace79]

We can get into some verrrry dorky battery talk, but I"m not qualified for it. Check out some RC car forums, or flashlight forums and you'll get a great education on that stuff. Or give my GM a shout, he's slowly becoming the king nerd in this dept.

LOL, I'm enough of a dork as it is, I think I'll leave the battery issue alone! :)

[chuckwoodchuck]

Carapace, where did you get the impression that they were using proprietary cells? Was it just the 20v designation?

We recently attended DeWalt training and were very hesitant to buy into the 20V line. I, and my GM, were both skeptical and saw it as pure marketing BS as I'm sure most of you do.

After understanding why they couldn't pack 3.0ah into the old batteries and needed to develop a new line to accomplish a fat pack lithium batt I was somewhat open to the line. Some of the features (slim handles, 3 lights, one handed bit loading, etc) should have been included on the 18 volt lithium line, but seemingly were engineering and design oversights. Using those features as marketing fother(sp?) for the new line isn't THAT powerful if you ask me. Some things like designed and manufactured in house motors, transmissions, etc on the premium units are worthwhile but ain't so sexy for ad campaigns.

The 20V max designation does make sense when you consider the possible mess that might be created with tons of guys asking for their "18 volt lithium batteries" and there are two different styles available.

All the improvements you listed from Dewalt have been in Makita tools since Li-Ion debuted about 6 years ago. Motors made in house, 3.0ah batteries, slim designs,etc.

As far as faster charging equals less battery cycles... I'm not convinced this is a true statement as much as Dewalt making excuses. The Makita charger has a proprietary charger with a fan that allows it to cool the battery, hence charging faster than others I have seen.

[JulianTracy]

The Dewalt rep I talked to said they took so long getting into LIion because they wanted to make sure the battery chemistry was really really good.

Yea right!

They dropped the ball with the late entance and the $179 pricing scheme for a battery and charger early on.

Second only to Bosch which lost a LOT of satisfied customers, me included, by coming out with LiIon 4 years after everyone else and only doing so with maybe a 4 tool lineup.

Versatility and variety is king. Why buy into a line that has 4-6 tools?

Panasonic too. Great stuff, but too limited.

JT

[Sean Tool Nut]

All the improvements you listed from Dewalt have been in Makita tools since Li-Ion debuted about 6 years ago. Motors made in house, 3.0ah batteries, slim designs,etc.

As far as faster charging equals less battery cycles... I'm not convinced this is a true statement as much as Dewalt making excuses. The Makita charger has a proprietary charger with a fan that allows it to cool the battery, hence charging faster than others I have seen.

I'm not claiming to be an expert regarding Makita or Milwaukee's in house componentry. I'm sure they use some on their premium stuff. Thanks for the info on that.

To get back to the battery story, I'll get my GM on here and he can provide some links, etc so we can dive into battery chemistry, recharge cycles vs speed, etc. I don't want to shove my foot in my mouth!

[David Tool Nut]

Howdy all. Interesting thread.

Lots of great info here, especially given the amount of mis-information that the tool industry has perpetuated over the last several years in regard to Lithium (Li-Ion, Lipo Lipo-Poly etc, etc..) technology.

Though I am far from any authority I can offer some insight.

Regarding Dewalt's new 20Max line:
Yes, Makita, and quite frankly all the other manufacturers entered the game years ahead of Dewalt..and yes, several of these manufacturers had batteries com-busting and burning houses, others merely had thousands of defective batteries that were recalled as well.

First is not necessarily best. The simple matter is Dewalt choose to make a lithium battery that could work in cordless tools that were meant for non Lithium technology. They got around that by regulating the output their lithium battery could send to the tool, so the tool would not burn out. PCB protected is a term some of you may be familiar with. It enabled them to be the only ones to make a lithium line that also retro-fitted with ANY older 18volt NiCad tool.

The downside: the "smart" battery was loaded with "smart chip" technology that took away capacity of the battery, hence their lithium battery had shorter run-time. They grabbed a huge chunk of the market from competitors because although they had shorter run-time, they had cornered the market on a retro-fittable line of lithium that made it possible to keep all ones' older tools. Personal 2 cents: Brilliant.

Dewalt is now aiming their guns on getting the share of the market they DID lose because of the lower run-time. So they removed the PCB technology and created a cheap 3.0 AH battery just like every other competitor that does NOT retro-fit. Whether or not someone agrees with their angle in which they attacked the market is a matter of personal opinion (although it is very hard to overlook the market share they grabbed because of their retro-fit platform, but I almost digress).

Moving on to lithium technology. I'd love to clear some air and help out any who might enjoy accurate info (I am a nut for learning). Lithium batteries are commonly comprised of a few different blends and manufacturers went about attacking the market share through designing their lithium batteries a certain way.

The (3) most common in the tool industry as far as this discussion is concerned:

1. Lithium Cobalt
2. Lithium Phosphate
3. Lithium Manganese

Each has its pluses and shortcomings. Generally speaking batteries comprised of Phosphate will have shorter run-time but allow more recharge cycles before the internal resistance that results from running a current through the anode and cathode (ie. re-charging ones battery on a charger) destroys the cells ability to hold a charge. Every battery has a lifespan.
Manganese/Cobalt-based batteries will have longer run-times but will build up internal resistance at a higher rate until Ohm’s Law (resistance equals heat and heat equals death to a battery- hence Makita’s Fan cooled chargers which was their best attempt at solving their issues with batteries pre-maturely burning out) claims another battery. Worth mentioning is the fact that if a battery is heating up because it is charging quicker (relatively speaking) can be cooled, but the cooling is external. A fan applied to a surface area helps dissipate the heat taking place on the inside or a circuitry. Meaning, it does not prevent heat, it prevents heat build up. The limitation with this "solution" is that both heat buildup AND the heat itself generated from passing a current through a lithuim cell (or any cell for that matter) is prematurely shortening its lifespan. Heats kills. Dissipating that heats kills a little more slowly. Less heat is always better. If a battery lasted x years before it died, however long that lifespan was, it will last X minus Y with more heat.

On another related note: any lithium cell that is charging at higher than 1C rating (see link below) increases the internal resistance of a battery (Ohm's Law again) and decreases it’s lifespan. So any manufacturer that boasts about fast charge time is doing so withing the limitations of curent lithium limitations. Lithium cells can only hold x amount of capacity. At present that capacity is at 4.2 volts max charge (fresh off a charge cycle) per cell, which is the same as 3.0 nominal (resting) volts per cell (20volt Max is the same as 18volt Nominal). So, a battery can only charge so fast, and can only hold so much capacity. Ergo, the only way to deviate from this limitation (to "cheat" the numbers, so to speak) is to manufacture battery cells at lower capacity and therefore fill up quicker than larger capacity cells, OR, use a charger that is charging at a rate higher than 1C...which bad for long term life of battery.

OK, If any of you are still reading this, I hope it offered some insight and a fresh perspective at the whole Lithium tool industry and what exactly Dewalt is doing in relation to what has already been done. I sell all the major cordless tools, own several and have followed this lithium craze for years...seen lots of industry debacles. Personally, and professionally speaking, i appreciate what Dewalt has done and think their 20Max line is another alternative to the contractor/homeowner who doesn’t need to retro-fit his older tools and wants longer run-time. That’s all it really is meant to be.

Cheers,
David


halfway decent link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery

Charging info: interesting read
http://www.rchelisite.com/lipo_batte...fety_guide.php

Ohms Law:
http://phet.colorado.edu/en/simulation/ohms-law