How do you go about estimating the work you plan to have done by subcontractors?

[Jerrald Hayes]

How do you go about estimating the work you plan to have done by subcontractors?

It's certainly hard enough to compile and develop good Unit Cost data for work your own company does in house so what procedures do you use for estimating the work you plan to have done by subcontractors?

[Allan Edwards]

I send them plans and specs and ask for a bid.

[Lavrans]

Ditto.

Sometimes I'll make a WAG, but that's dependent on the size of the job. The bigger the job, the less I want to make any guesses.

[dgbldr]

Same here. Most of the time the sub gets to have a look-see on site.

On smaller jobs I may make a guess if it's a task we've done many times with the same sub.

[Jerrald Hayes]

Well, while I agree with you guys that that is certainly the best procedure it still leaves some of the general questions about this topic I was hoping to explore unanswered.

Do you invite two or three different contractors for each trade to come an look at the project. When it's a remodel and not new construction just how do you handle all those site visits?

Back in the days when I was estimating work as sub since we were doing finish work (stairs and architectural woodwork) I would often only be invited to look at the job when it was well underway. Just how do you think those GCs estimated the project since they very obviously didn't call us as a sub to come and estimate the work while they were bidding the project?

[Jerrald Hayes]

Regarding:

...Sometimes I'll make a WAG, but that's dependent on the size of the job. The bigger the job, the less I want to make any guesses.

and

Same here. Most of the time the sub gets to have a look-see on site.

On smaller jobs I may make a guess if it's a task we've done many times with the same sub.

What kind of criteria to you make your SWAG, WAG or guess on? Memory? Gut feeling? Real historical data?

[Dancing Dan]

Jerry - I know how some of my subs bid (drywaller - $X/sf for 8' walls & ceilings, painter $X/sf for walls or siding, $X/lf for trim, plumber $ly/fixture for reno work) and that's mostly come from a long-term relationship where they trust me not to use the data to either undercut them or beat them up.

So - I can bid some jobs based on either that knowledge or on historical data.

[Mark G]

For the few subs I use, I've sat down with them and incorporated their pricing into my spreadsheet. I don't bother them until I have the job. Keep in mind that I'm small; one man show doing a lot of bathrooms these days.

[BeachBoy]

I send them plans and specs and ask for a bid.

I agree with Allen, but this answer is so obvious that I don't even understand the question!

Only a sub who works with his suppliers on a daily basis will have an accurate estimate of material pricing, and hopefully a good relationship with the vendor who will lock in the pricing for a period of time. The sub will know his labor costs from past experience, and his overhead costs. He will also be on top of recent code changes and industry 'best practices'. He will be aware of other incidentals, such as required city licenses, city required insurance, etc.

A contractor can try to estimate what the sub will bid, but that is a pretty good way to get it wrong. Losing money on jobs and trying to make it up in volume doesn't usually work very well...

[dgbldr]

What kind of criteria to you make your SWAG, WAG or guess on? Memory? Gut feeling? Real historical data?

Nothing WA about it. Real data. My laminate countertop guy charges me by the sf and number of counters. I can count the sf myself or I can call him with the dimensions of each counter and he'll give me the exact price. And so on.

After you've worked in the field for a while, you just know which jobs you can estimate yourself, which ones you need to send pictures/drawings/measurements to the sub, and which ones you need to have him come look on site.

[Overbuilders]

Lotsa P's. I meet with prospective clients, measure the project, and take as many pertinent pictures as possible. I then make a very basic drawing that gets emailed to subs, along with pictures and all preliminary info garnered from said clients, collect and itemize sub numbers, and give them a general overview based on whatever budget number they fabricated during the initial phone interview.

[Jerrald Hayes]

The consensus or at least a plurality answer now and when I asked this question years ago seems to be:

Hand them a set of drawings and let them give you a price usually works.

I send them plans and specs and ask for a bid.

That's it?

That's all there is to it?

What about the General Conditions that you as the Prime Contractor have to abide by? What about the parking, special condition & restriction, physical access to to the site, pets, owner occupancy, work hours, clean up and protection requirements, etc etc? How about photographs and/or videos of the site conditions? What about the schedule? When do you anticipate needing the work done? If it is a remodeling/renovation contract what about the site visit? How do you arrange all those site visits if you are planning on talking to more than one contractor for each trade?

And if that is really the answer why don't all the GCs actually ask their subs to estimate their respective trades? Working as a stair builder and architectural woodwork contractor for so many years I can't tell you how many times I was called to give a price for a project where the GC already had a price in mind for what they thought that stair and balustrade or coffered ceiling would cost. Where did they get that price?

How many GCs are there out there (I say tons) that estimate the work they plan on having their subs do and never really consult them in that planning/estimating stage and then go and try and find a CHEAP sub that will fit their targeted cost for that trades work. Doesn't quality suffer under that kind of scenario?

What about small or simple projects? Do you go to your sub for every last little project you yourself bid on (and only have a 1 out 3 chance of winning).

If you are charging for estimates do you pay your subs for the estimates you are asking them to give you?

Again in another forum a fellow wrote:

I have my subs pricing in my cost database..

Good idea or bad?

[Overbuilders]

That's it?

That's all there is to it?

To clarify, 100% of my work is remodel, and I refuse to give a detailed estimate until prospects provide established details to actually bid. And no, it's not free. And no, I am not a designer, but out of sheer convenience most clients want me to be.

[dgbldr]

Working as a stair builder and architectural woodwork contractor for so many years I can't tell you how many times I was called to give a price for a project where the GC already had a price in mind for what they thought that stair and balustrade or coffered ceiling would cost. Where did they get that price?

I don't know. Did you ask? If not, why not?

[Allan Edwards]

Jerrald

I am currently bidding 6 new homes, 3 or 4 are competitive bids against several other builders. They are high $ jobs, in my geographical area, so I have to bid them. For preliminary bidding, I will sometimes just guesssitmate what I think a sub will charge, but of course this is based on a history with them. Some items are easy, I know a foundation will be about $14/sq ft. Some items, like HVAC, require a sub to bid.

However, as the job becomes "more serious", where I am giving a hard bid # on a fixed price contract, I will get almost everything bid out. Also, on a cost plus job, depending on the client, I might just use my own estimating ability to plug in a number.