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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Martinez, California
    Posts
    15,026

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    Next thing you are going to tell me is that I have to get certificates of workers' comp from my pencil sharpener, before I do that I'll go back to sharpening my own damn pencils, I'll show them.
    When fascism comes to America it will not be in brown and black shirts, it will not be with jack-boots, it will be in Nike sneakers and Smiley shirts. Germany lost the Second World War, Fascism won it. George Carlin 1937 - 2008

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Houston & Washington Texas
    Posts
    12,235

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    As a business owner you have exposure to many risks. These risks are almost too many to list, but they include the obvious and the not so obvious. There are only so many hours in the day, so many brain cells available to deal with the risks we face. Risk management is part of being a business owner and the decisions you make will determine your success in your business.

    Sometimes we can over analyze these risks and by doing so miss an opportunity.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    11,339

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    Quote Originally Posted by Allan Edwards View Post
    Sometimes we can over analyze these risks and by doing so miss an opportunity.
    I'll bite. What's the missed opportunity?

    I'd say that making a site publishing what the states definitions of things are might be in there, but that's a lot of work for an unknown return.

    But heck, look at Facebook.
    http://www.lavrans.com

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts; for support rather than illumination." -Andrew Lang

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Houston & Washington Texas
    Posts
    12,235

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    A business owner can be so concerned about potential risk that they don't take them, thus missing an opportunity.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    11,339

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    Ah. I guess I'm not seeing as much desperation as you guys are.

    I'd be sending off complaints to the insurance commission, but that's partly because I prefer to do what I can to make them do something to justify their existence.

    The rest of it's really a pretty good question about who gets to make up the rules and definitions, especially of a service that isn't voluntary and is within a trapped, guaranteed market. What do you do if your insurance company is lying to you or making up rules that aren't consistent with state law? When do you take action? Where do you go to find out?

    Those are basic, foundation issues of management. You can't be financially responsible if you allow others to steal from you. That's just as true of an insurance company as it is a subcontractor, employee or client.
    http://www.lavrans.com

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts; for support rather than illumination." -Andrew Lang

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    11,339

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Seibert View Post
    Next thing you are going to tell me is that I have to get certificates of workers' comp from my pencil sharpener, before I do that I'll go back to sharpening my own damn pencils, I'll show them.
    OK, that's hysterical Dick.

    $60 for a sharpened pencil. What do you do if it shows with broken lead, or you aren't happy with the angle the sharpener is at (too blunt? too long?). Well, at least you get a complimentary print.
    http://www.lavrans.com

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts; for support rather than illumination." -Andrew Lang

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    9,252

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavrans View Post
    Ah. I guess I'm not seeing as much desperation as you guys are.
    I agree - HD has a valid question and has received an asinine answer from his WC broker. He is being nothing but prudent and financially wise - not to mention being a smart business owner by wanting to define and understand the rules of the game he is playing.

    If I was being told that my materials could potentially be on my WC liability - I'd be demanding answers as well.

    When I got started - I asked my WC broker why I was only allotted one WC classification - we do many things. With a little 15 minute discussion and 5 minutes typing up a letter; I was allotted 2 more classifications (both at lower rates). They told me hardly anyone asks about different rates - more profit for me over my competitors. I save around $500 - $1000 per year for an hours worth or my time.

    HD - I suspect that you could ask to be removed from this companies WC pool and reassigned to another with enough noise and hassle.
    “Racism is man's gravest threat to man - the maximum of hatred for a minimum of reason.”
    Abraham J. Heschel (Jewish theologian and philosopher, 1907-1972)

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Upstream
    Posts
    10,019

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    Experiencing Illinois politics firsthand after the last presidential election, I'll bet you're not getting solid answers because no bureaucratic palms are currently being greased.
    Richie Poor

    See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, value engineer your unit prices.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Western suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    5,554

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    Quote Originally Posted by Dick Seibert View Post
    Next thing you are going to tell me is that I have to get certificates of workers' comp from my pencil sharpener, before I do that I'll go back to sharpening my own damn pencils, I'll show them.
    The different illegal immigrant workforces here have driven the price to under $40/pencil, Dick.
    Greg

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Posts
    1,559

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    As mentioned earlier you may wish to consult with a lawyer that "persues" WC claims and knows what claims are valid and why / why not ? I don't mean the ones in the yellow pages but a comp / comm bus atty.

    Most local bar assoc have a referral service that you can speak to an atty for half an hour for $50. Of course you could get the typical conversation that the matter needs to be researched, etc and for that I charge $750 ---$1500....

    This seems a little simplistic but could provide some info or a referral to a firm to answer your question and get a fitting answer.

    I'm watching this thread with interest. Good luck.

    **Call one of these women comp lawyers in the neighborhood. They may be more honest and try harder ?
    Last edited by Happy Home; 08-14-2010 at 09:34 AM.
    Steve

    "Get three coffins ready" - A Fistful of Dollars 1964

    http://youtu.be/KZ_7br_3y54

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North/Central FL
    Posts
    784

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    Quote Originally Posted by davenorthup View Post
    When I got started - I asked my WC broker why I was only allotted one WC classification - we do many things. With a little 15 minute discussion and 5 minutes typing up a letter; I was allotted 2 more classifications (both at lower rates). They told me hardly anyone asks about different rates - more profit for me over my competitors. I save around $500 - $1000 per year for an hours worth or my time.
    We log on our timesheets the type of work completed during each work day. We then classify the work based on CSI divisions. When the auditor comes he has the option of checking our classifications against the hours worked in each class. This helps us track our job costs, and WC classes at the same time

    I've never asked vendors for WC, but it sounds like cheap insurance.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Western suburbs of Chicago
    Posts
    5,554

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    Quote Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
    We log on our timesheets the type of work completed during each work day. We then classify the work based on CSI divisions. When the auditor comes he has the option of checking our classifications against the hours worked in each class. This helps us track our job costs, and WC classes at the same time
    We do something similar. In fact, we just updated our timesheets so as to better capture the information & make it less likely to be challenged by the insurance company/auditor.

    Another thing we did which dramatically reduced our WC costs was to shop the policy. Turns out the agent we'd been with for over 15 years was lax in making sure we had the best value available. We're anticipating a savings of at least 25% overall on our annual premiums with the new carrier. Moral is, don't be complacent when it comes to looking at the numbers in your business - there could be some big savings out there if you search for them.
    Greg

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    NoVA
    Posts
    1,276

    Default Re: Workers Comp: Subcontractor vs. Vendor

    HD,

    I think you should be able to review some sort of "master agreement" that the insurance company has, which would detail what they define as covered work under the WC policy. Dick would likely know if this thing exists.

    I've always been under the impression that the fairly limitied amount of paperwork that I receive from my insurance company is backed up by some huge master contract "in their office", which is what everything will go back to for reference in case there is ever a problem.

    As Allan montioned, there is only so much time to chase things down, so for me, I have never pursued researching what it is that my policy really says. But my rates are low enough that I'm not feeling nearly as much of a squeeze as you are with the rates you are being quoted.

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