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  1. #1
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    Jul 2004
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    Default Interesting NAHB Stance

    They're suing to maintain the opt-out provision...http://www.qualifiedremodeler.com/on...2113&pageNum=1
    Greg

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    To me it's goofy and just grand standing.

    When NAHB gets into court and the judge ask to see their documentation showing adults are not harmed ... they can't produce any. Because these associations haven't done any test. They haven't done any research. All they will be able to produce is "opinions".

    On a personal note ... I wish the opt-out wasn't gone.

    However wishing it was gone is a far distance from doing my own research/studies and showing it is not needed.
    Dean

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean CRCNA View Post
    To me it's goofy and just grand standing.
    Yeah but it's a good one for bringing in some new money. Times are tough.
    “I find the curiosity of our men with respect to this animal is pretty much satisfied.”
    ~ Meriwether Lewis

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMc View Post
    Yeah but it's a good one for bringing in some new money. Times are tough.
    Ah ... was wondering why a new home builder organization would be worried about an old home problem.
    Dean

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis, Indiana
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    NAHB's stance is that the EPA had no supporting evidence or new research to remove the opt-out.

    I'm no banner carrier for the NAHB, but they've been at the table on this issue from the beginning, and a lot of the right concerns and questions were brought up but fell on deaf ears. In the years leading up to the rule's release, NAHB even commissioned their own lead renovation study. There doesn't need to be any new research performed, there's more than enough evidence that the RRP Rule goes beyond what's reasonable to achieve lead safety--and stands to go even farther over the coming years if and when third party clearance testing and expansion to commercial structures come online.

    With the reduction in the market for new construction, NAHB's remodeling wing has taken on greater significance. But again, they were one of the handful of associations involved with the rule from the beginning.

    I've said this before in other forums and it bears repeating:
    There's no question lead safety is important as is the need for educating renovation firms on the issue. But the confusion and resulting bitterness in the industry surrounding the implementation of this rule has done a great disservice to the cause of keeping kids safe.
    Last edited by ChrWright; 07-09-2010 at 03:19 PM.
    Christopher Wright, WrightWorks, LLC
    Indianapolis Remodeling Contractor
    Remodeling Photos
    www.Facebook.com/WrightWorks
    www.Twitter.com/ChrWright
    President, Central Indiana NARI, Named to the 2010 REMODELING Big50

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    Many of us would say it goes a bit too far, but as you say it's not a new thing, nor has the industry stepped up to the plate to prevent others from creating regulation, having been too far behind the curve. What is deemed "reasonable" is very mutable and very tied to the flows of money.
    “I find the curiosity of our men with respect to this animal is pretty much satisfied.”
    ~ Meriwether Lewis

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Boston, MA
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    I can tell you if you are a home builder, you should belong to NAHB. It is a great organization that truly doesn't shy away from throwing the gloves down and having a good fight to protect and promote the home building industry, as you can see from the substance of this thread.

    Now I belong to a few organizations, including the AIA, another big one, I can tell you they don't do justice to the architectural profession the way NAHB does it for home builders.

    Join NAHB if you haven't already, what a great organization.

  8. #8
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    Oct 2006
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    If the opt out comes back which I hope it does look for future mandatory EPA pamphlets with a strong recommendation target groups get tested before and after renovations.

    Lead poisoning by the way is going down not up with state initiatives in the last 10 years. Seems the greater the sample pool, the less percent affected. Seems like it mostly affects sub standard housing and the bums that own them. Locally the rental / apt assoc fought tooth and nail against an initiative to educate and provide far greater availability of testing poor kids. They prevailed. Just give them the HUD pamphlet when they move in and its gets tossed in with the rest of the fed / local paperwork. But the gov't has to come in and label everything a hazard.
    Last edited by Happy Home; 07-09-2010 at 05:02 PM.
    Steve

    "Get three coffins ready" - A Fistful of Dollars 1964

    http://youtu.be/KZ_7br_3y54

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    A big problem with these studies (NAHB, EPA ...) is they are not a "normal" (average) scenario.

    Example: Take dust sampling after a Dustless Construction remodel and you will probably find very little to no lead. In fact, the lead dust level will be better than before they started. However, take dust sampling after Illegal Construction and you will have gobs of lead dust all over the place.

    The differences have to do with the company and the way they do work.

    Company A may put down tarps ... mist and then use a blade to score the sheet rock, before removing it. Once they finish, they clean up where you can eat off of it. Company B puts no tarps down and uses a hammer to remove the sheetrock. They just use a shop vac to clean up.

    You will find a major difference in lead levels (dust and air).

    If I wanted to do a study to show lead is not a problem, I would use Dustless Construction and before hand given special instructions. I would also mention to the owner that I will have his 3 year daughter lick the floor, window sills and counter tops after cleanup (to make sure the area is pristine.

    If I wanted to do a study to show lead is a problem, I would use Illegal Construction and before hand ... give special instruction (how to make the most dust).

    In real life (my opinion), there are a ton of contractors who don't leave the area in pristine condition.
    Dean

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Home View Post
    Lead poisoning by the way is going down not up with state initiatives in the last 10 years.
    Depends. In New York, lead poisoning has risen 100% from RRP activities from 1994 to 2007. Happening in other areas too.

    Generally lead poisoning has dramatically dropped over the decades, but "generally" includes stopping leaded gasoline, checking toys for lead, starting new regulations, controlling commercial lead output and many more items. Just because the general lead poisoning has gone down ... doesn't mean the lead poisoning from RRP activities have dropped any.
    Dean

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    Friday Harbor, San Juan Island, Washington
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    I'm tempted to say the EPA rule has it all wrong. They want contractors to be trained in safe work habits, and to make owners blameless, but what really should happen is that homes should be tested and lead abated by specialists. Then the average remodeler can go in and work without any hassle at all. I personally have no desire to try to do LSWP and fortunately get most of my work on newer homes. The legal liability alone is enough to deter me. Like Chuck said, "What year was your home built?"
    Bailer Hill Construction, Inc. - Friday Harbor, WA
    Website - Facebook

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Greensboro, NC
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean CRCNA View Post
    Depends. In New York, lead poisoning has risen 100% from RRP activities from 1994 to 2007. Happening in other areas too.
    Dean,

    I cant find the graph I was looking for but look at this one. NY / NYC the greater the testing pool, the less % ebl (elevated blood levels)

    Click on the burgundy graphs on the left
    http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/data/state/nydata.htm

    These graphs say in both NY and NYC ebl have been cut in less than half over the last 10 yrs.

    Addl - Somebody must be doing something right....I wonder what it is ? Whatever it is they should continue to do it. Seems like originally the sampling was done in obvious places with predictable results. Then a greater sampling with out linear results. Now even a greater sampling, the whole country will show now the lowest levels in history in future years. Surely a perverted analysis but will validate the EPA's efforts. Fund the local initiatives. They are working.

    and....and...and....it will take away resources from the people who need it most, the targeted population, poor kids and mothers. They will literally be left in the (lead) dust while hundreds of inspectors will be out on Forsythia Lane. What else is new ? They can't even get 1 inspector around to sub - standard housing but once every how many years ?
    Last edited by Happy Home; 07-09-2010 at 06:40 PM.
    Steve

    "Get three coffins ready" - A Fistful of Dollars 1964

    http://youtu.be/KZ_7br_3y54

  13. #13
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    Dallas Area
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    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    Happy,

    I don't dispute those graphs. In general lead poisoning has gone down. However, if they showed a graph of lead poisoning FROM RRP ACTIVITIES in New York the graph would be heading up ... increasing more than 100% (from CDC website, same as your reference).

    To use an example: lead poisoning from leaded gasoline has dropped over the decades. This doesn't mean that lead poisoning from RRP activities have dropped.

    May not be making myself clear
    Dean

  14. #14
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    Jun 2004
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    Houston & Washington Texas
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    12,181

    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted S. View Post
    I can tell you if you are a home builder, you should belong to NAHB. It is a great organization that truly doesn't shy away from throwing the gloves down and having a good fight to protect and promote the home building industry, as you can see from the substance of this thread.

    Join NAHB if you haven't already, what a great organization.
    I agree Ted, the NAHB is a great organization for builders AND remodelers. There is a tremendous amount of educational and beneficial information available through NAHB, I would encourage all contractors to join.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    Posts
    52

    Default Re: Interesting NAHB Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean CRCNA View Post
    Happy,

    I don't dispute those graphs. In general lead poisoning has gone down. However, if they showed a graph of lead poisoning FROM RRP ACTIVITIES in New York the graph would be heading up ... increasing more than 100% (from CDC website, same as your reference).

    To use an example: lead poisoning from leaded gasoline has dropped over the decades. This doesn't mean that lead poisoning from RRP activities have dropped.

    May not be making myself clear
    Do you have a link to this data?
    Christopher Wright, WrightWorks, LLC
    Indianapolis Remodeling Contractor
    Remodeling Photos
    www.Facebook.com/WrightWorks
    www.Twitter.com/ChrWright
    President, Central Indiana NARI, Named to the 2010 REMODELING Big50

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