Another one to contemplate ?

[always-learning]

I guess I finally put this thread in the right forum.... Thanks Josh.


Perspective customer calls up. Says....

"Ok, I'm willing to do the demo, will that remove you from having to do RRP, and give me the real price ? "

Since I don't know, I figured I'd post it here. Anyone have a H.O. request to do their own demo?


Dean? F Stephen ? Seems as though you two guys might have a clue on how this works.


What I'm looking for is procedures that I'm going to have to do, once it's been demo'd.

What are my legal obligations?

How do I protect my ass ?


Thanks


BTW, House built circa 1939

It's a kitchen remodel / bathroom reconfiguration. Move bath, take out a couple walls. ALL PERMITED.

He's acting as GC and hiring his own sparky and flushie. He's also going to have to hire a Structural Engineer to do the changes.

[magna111]

Not that it has anything to do with RRP, but are you going to be charging extra knowing that you are following the HO's demo work? Also consider and make sure they are aware that their job may be demoed for a few days before you get in there to proceed with your work. What might take us half a day to demo may take Joe Homeowner 3 weekends and leave you with a mess to follow.

[Overbuilders]

How do I protect my ass ?

With summa that there K-Y ass jelly. ;p

[tom dickey]

the thing i would be most worried about would be the building inspector i would talk to him first them my lawer to get a document saying that you did not do the demo and there was no lead paint in the areas of the house were you are preforming work and that the HO may have exposed himself and family to lead dust and possible poisoning!

[David Meiland]

If the place is gutted down to studs and subfloor, how could there be lead-based paint or tile glaze left? I agree that some sort of statement by the owner that the contractor performed no demo would be wise, but lacking that I think you're covered if the scope of work starts with re-framing, and specifically states that the owner will perform all demo, hauling, and cleanup before contractor starts.

And then you better make damn sure that no change order arises where they are asking you to remodel the rest of the house.

[Shawn Prentice]

If the place is gutted down to studs and subfloor, how could there be lead-based paint or tile glaze left?

Provided the components demolished contain lead, there will be residual lead dust from improper cleaning and it will most likely be scattered throughout the house by the time the contractors come in to rebuild.

[David Meiland]

Yeah, but what can you do about that? Does this strategy violate the RRP rule or in your opinion expose you to greater liability than a normal job?

[Shawn Prentice]

Yeah, but what can you do about that? Does this strategy violate the RRP rule or in your opinion expose you to greater liability than a normal job?

I don't believe it violates the rule at all since HOs can perform work on their own homes without taking the precautions, but it defeats the purpose of protecting ourselves and the homeowners from lead exposure.

I don't see how there would be any liability on the contractor's part since he/she wasn't involved in any demolition, only rebuilding.

It would be similar to the scenario I have coming up on a bathroom job. My plumber won't get certified (which is fine because he is one of the best around), so I will do all the demolition following RRP (because I have to) and make any access holes he needs, then have him come in to start his work.

[MarkMc]

I don't believe it violates the rule at all since HOs can perform work on their own homes without taking the precautions, but it defeats the purpose of protecting ourselves and the homeowners from lead exposure. And, I don't see how there would be any liability on the contractor's part since he/she wasn't involved in any demolition, only rebuilding.

It would be similar to the scenario I have coming up on a bathroom job. My plumber won't get certified (which is fine because he is one of the best around), so I will do all the demolition following RRP and make any access holes he needs, then have him come in to start his work. That way, he doesn't have to be certified.

The difference being that you are liable under OSHA 1926.16 for maintaining the environment for the plumber, whereas the HO demo does add ambiguity, it could be interesting coming in to that situation as GC starting after demo on a dirty site esp if there was foreknowledge of hazard.

[David Meiland]

How reliably could you test for lead dust on the subfloor, framing, back of wall sheathing, etc?

[MarkMc]

Would depend on if you mean me or the royal version Me [you/one/ or They], the dust levels, material/surface being sampled from and the type of test being performed. The typ wipe test might prove quite reliable and one could test/have tested collected samples preferably by a cert tester.

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/hwtr/...eadsample.html

All I'm saying is that having the HO do it for you/themselves does not automatically give you a pass on workplace liability by OSHA. Of course you probably stand a better chance of catching a 40 lb golden dorado down at you local dock than having the big O come knocking, but...

[GaryJR]

Have the HO do the demo and then have them bring in a certified company with the XRF Flux capacitor analyzer, testing all areas you are required to work in.
If the results come back no lead, then start your phase of the project.

[always-learning]

I guess we're all speculating here, but I was hoping that Dean would chime in. If he has indeed been performing this for some time now, he would be familiar with this.

For the record, I didn't suggest that he do his own demo. I told him about the law, and he suggested it.

My fear is that, with all of the hype going on, pending tomorrow, that he would be spreading this dust throughout his own home, more than if a contractor did it. I'm sure there wouldn't be precautions taken to prevent dust spreading throughout the home, and I just can imagine he would be washing down studs, and floors, and joists or whatever, to prepare for a carpenter / contractor / sparky / flushie to come in.

Considering I just received my certification today, in the mail, I'm going to make sure that I follow / play by the rules, when necessary. They're already threatening, in the paperwork provided by the epa, that they will be doing inspections and audits to ensure compliance. Could be blowing wind or reality. Don't know yet, nor do I want to find out.

[m beezo]

I am thinking back in my business. I have let HO do work on their homes to offset costs in the past. All kinds of things that I thought I could do better or do faster. But the money was the issue. I know that some of the work in the past could have caused problems such as a broken pipe, damage the walls or floors as they work, electical where they did not know it existed. Yet I let them do the work. It was dangerous then and it is dangerous now.

What I did do was include language in my contracts that was pretty specific that I did not do certain things, the homeowner did them. Actually I think it may have been a seperate page but maybe not. May have been just a bold print stating what happened, who did what. Now I have never taken that to a lawyer or had anyone come after me so I do not know if it will hold up but that is what I did.

Other thing is why not let them do the demo then before you start work you go in and do a cleaning with your HEPA stuff. Clean just like it was your job but charge them something for it. Tell them it is for your own saftey as much as anything else. Then start to work. I am thinking even after demo is done and work is started you will still need the HEPA stuff around. Think about how many times you have shot a nail and seen dust fly off some junciton where the plate and stud connect that you thought was pertty clean. Or it blow out from behind a piece of trim. Even clean up just banging around, dropping things on the floor is probably going to raise more dust and some of it may be lead.

That is part of my complaint about the entire issue. I am not really taking care of anything that is lead related but what I work on. It could be one door or window in a room. And after I leave the lead paint is still there to continue to create more dust. All you have to do is make it clean for the duration of the time it takes to clean and do a dust wipe test and you are good. Who cares after you are gone what happens in the house.

[JayNos]

I'd also include in the "Cover Yer Ass" form a line about you offering the demo services and the customers refusing them and deciding to do them him/herself. Also, make sure you get the Renovate Right brochure to them and get their signature on the "I gave you this brochure" form.

You can probably also have some line similar to "Homeowner will demo/cleanup and assume all liability for toxic dust created during demo", but in legal language. I have a "homeowner must carry insurance on property" clause and this one would be similar.

Congrats on getting the Firm Cert!