lead paint encapsulation

[m beezo]

Just took the RRP class and the topic of encapsulation came up. Our instrauctor said it was a special type of paint, very expensive. I seem to remember seeing it back in the late 1990's. I was thinking if it is still available this might be the time to start looking into using the stuff again.

Anyone else remember the stuff and did it work or was it a scam?

[Tom Bainbridge]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

encapsulation paint is avaliable here and is approved by SOME local authorities

so it must be avaliable for you, perhaps with the same local restrictions

i personally dont like encapsulation, it is a plaster not a cure

encapsulation is liked by homeowners and architects/designers because it has a posh sounding name AND its a cheap fix

i tell you, contractors arnt the only cowboys in building game, architects/designers and home owners are MUCH worse

a plague on all their houses

these people dont give a monkeys fuk for the dangers they are hiding for future workers


"they" never learn until they get legal claims against them

"they" used to specify what we now know as "encapsulation" to hide asbestos lagged pipes

now there are a trickle of legal cases by workers against the people who "hid" the asbestos lagging

there WILL BE legal cases, in the future, filed against the people who "hid" lead paint


personally justified rant completed

[m beezo]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

Tom,
I do not know too much about the encapsulation products. But I can see both sides of the story. If you don't encapsulate the products then your only other option seems to be to remove it. Lots of regualtions and lots of problems with how it is handled. Plus the cost is huge to come into a house and remove it all by stripping and probably just as expensive if you were to try to replace it with something similiar.

Not sure about your saying it is plaster. I was talking about some sort of paint and was thinking it could be used on trim.

As far as future lawsuits, I am starting that just about everything connected with building could lead to a lawsuit. Things such as plastic that we used to wrap all the walls with, not knowing about asbestos, formaldehyde in plywood, lead being used for water pipes. There are lots of things out there that we put in a house that might not kill you today like a faulty electrical item, but over time it might get you.

[Tom Bainbridge]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

mb. you are right, its all a case of the "case" that gets you

as you say lead pipes are a problem

curious thing is that the ancient romans and greeks knew the medical problem with lead poisioning thousands of years ago

............ and we were still plumbing (Pb=Lead=plumbers) houses with lead pipes until 80 years ago

[Tom Bainbridge]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

mb, you're right

removal is the only proper answer to avoid legal problems

problems are that nobody wants to accept the cost (or legal responisibility)

[always-learning]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

Just took the RRP class .......

Wow, that was exciting. wasn't it ? I bet you had so much fun, being there with those other gentlemen of the industry, trying not to fall asleep during the class.


What do you (I mean you) think about the encapsulation issue ? If you provide an "encapsulation service" and you charge accordingly for it, what happens to your liability, if Johnny or Suzie still gets sick, due to previous exposure ?

Won't the H.O. come a knocking on your door because you sold them on this idea of "Encapsulation of their lead paint problem" ? Aren't you setting yourself up for a big fall ? I realize that you're not a "lead abatement contractor", so by selling a service that gives the impression that you're correcting an issue, may cause you trouble down the line.

I'm not selling anyone any remedy for their lead problems..... even though I personally feel that there really isn't any lead problems, as long as their homes are properly maintained. I'm just going to do what's required of me, and that's it. No guarantees, no false promises of "fixing their issue". Just complying with the law and documenting it.

Just my .01

[frenchie]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

Google shopping only found one retail product - FWIW, 70$ a gallon.

But I'm mostly thinking, the same as Chuck. What does encapsulant paint have to do with RRP? RRP isn't about full-on abatement. It's just about not inadvertently spreading contaminated dust.

Came across the RRP instructor's manual. Page 5:

This course is not an abatement course designed to address the removal, encapsulation or enclosure of lead-based paint or lead-based paint hazards. (...) To perform lead abatement work requires additional specialized training.

http://www.epa.gov/cgi-bin/epalink?l...nual_feb09.pdf

A bit like taking a CPR class & asking about defibrillators...

Or, are you thinking, as long as we have to deal with these rules, and buy all this gear, might as well go full-hog & certify for abatement? The thought's crossed my mind more than once...

[m beezo]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

Was not really thinking of abatement. But was thinking of the fact of how I often do a window replacement job. I have a couple of different price points with different services. One of the differences is I offer interior and exterior painting after the window is installed. So my thinking was more along the lines of if I am going to have to paint the windows why not offer to encapsulate the areas I am painting. Thru the documentation process I would note that I did the lead work, the cleaning and testing and encapsulated the window trim. Did nothing else to the other trim in the house, just the window trim.

A big part of the entire issue for me is no matter what type of work I do there is still lots of lead paint left in the house if you stay with my window replacement example. So even tho I have done my job there is still lead left in the house that may affect someone later on. All I am really concerned with is that for 10 minutes during the testing process that no lead dust is found. After I pass all the lead dust that you want can blow around from the duct work, drift down for a door being slammed, drift down from a crack in the plaster and the dust coming from behind the baseboards upstairs. But by encapsulating some of it you are lessoning the amount of dust, cutting down the percentage of problems. That amount might make a difference to someone.

Our instructor said to never use the work abatement with a client since that is an entirely differnet set of game rules.

[always-learning]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

....................... I have a couple of different price points with different services. . So my thinking was more along the lines of if I am going to have to paint the windows why not offer to encapsulate the areas I am painting. .......

Because you're offering a false sense of security to your customer. By encapsulating one window, you're band-aiding the real problem in the home...... and you were compensated EXTRA for it.

no matter what type of work I do there is still lots of lead paint left in the house if you stay with my window replacement example...... All I am really concerned with is that for 10 minutes during the testing process that no lead dust is found. After I pass all the lead dust that you want can blow around from the duct work, drift down for a door being slammed, drift down from a crack in the plaster and the dust coming from behind the baseboards upstairs. But by encapsulating some of it you are lessoning the amount of dust, cutting down the percentage of problems. That amount might make a difference to someone.

.

Again, you're offering a service you shouldn't be, IMO. When you tell them you're "lessening the amount of overall dust in their home", you are basically telling them that they'll be "this much safer, by doing so.".

Just comply with the rules, and prevent your actions from causing more dust, and not whatever else is happening in the home. The documentation is there to protect you as well, so whatever you do, don't throw the it out after the 3 years retaining period. What a f-in joke that is.

You're in a house, and the baby is a year old. You do your work, and your gone. In the mean time, the H.O. has other contractors in the house, or they themselves did work in there. Their kid gets sick. They remember "M. Beezo was here and he mentioned something about lead". they go through their paperwork, and find you were in their house 3.5 years ago, and they now think your work may have had something to do with their kids sickness. You go to your file, but you purged it at 3 years. Now you're stuck.. Oh, yeah. You never purchased the pollution insurance, so now you have to fight this with your own resources.

I still can't figure out what kind of "educated person" would come up with such idiotic requirements.

[m beezo]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

always,
not sure I agree with you about doing things that I should not do. I cannot see that offering to encapsulate the areas I am working on is going to lead to the issue as you describe it. But I have been wrong before. I do not always seem to think of ways that folks may want to come and get me and take me to the cleaners. And that is a part of what has concerned me about this whole issue. Maybe how you term the wording, what you say might be more important than anything else. Now I am thinking I need to take a tape recorder and record all the conversation and keep that also as proof.

For me, for 20 years I have worked in older homes as my main focus. Homes that I know have lead and anyone with a brain would know the same thing. Maybe just lucky or something but I have yet to have anyone come after me yet. For anything that I have done. And I have to tell you I have done things that at the time were considered the best practices and then were found out to not be so good. One of those would be the practice of putting plastic over the fiberglass insulation before installing drywall. Now not such a good idea.

[frenchie]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

Beez - if you read up on abatement a bit, you'll find they recommend encapsulation ONLY for sound wall & ceiling surfaces - it's specifically NOT recommended for things like windows & doors. Anything that moves, anything likely to experience friction, they recommend removal instead.

Like Chuck says, be careful about making any claims beyond "I follow the new rules". I'm the guy who doesn't see how the new rules affect our liability - but I can still see how making any extra claims, beyond that, would increase it.

[bread and roses]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

I pictured a whole different thing here...

Back in 2000 or so I was working on an ultra-high-end remodel and saw a fantastic product, that probably costs a fortune, but would be worth it in some situations. The guys using it called it "green goo". You paint it onto a surface that has lead paint, and it reacts with the paint and bubbles up and then hardens into a rubbery film. You peel the film off (easily) and the paint, encapsulated in the goo, comes off. Throw the green goo in your special labeled "lead" hazardous waste bags, and you're done.

The beautiful thing about it was that they were using it on plasterwork and when they peeled it off, the plaster was there looking like the day it was put up- all the detail crisp and clean, no paint in the corners, nothing. There's just no way you could possibly do that by scraping the paint, or using a chemical stripper. So this product enabled them to preserve old plasterwork that otherwise would have had to be demo'ed and replaced.

Probably not a useful option for most of the guys on here. But a handy trick to have up your sleeve if you run into the right situation.

[m beezo]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

would be interested in hearing any more about the green goo you mentioned bread and roses. I am wondering if it is one of the strippers that you apply then put the sheeting over? The sheeting keeps down the evaporation plus gives it something to stick to to help you be able to pull it off as far as I remember.

Anything else you can tell us?

[dgbldr]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

There is nothing magic about that. There are several products that do that and they are not particularly expensive.

He's talking about alkaline stripper gel. You paint it on, thick film. Then you cover it with a type of wax paper. Comes with it. You let it soak for a while (depending on how many coats of paint you're trying to penetrate). Then you peel it off with all layers of paint. You need to neutralize the surface with an acid wash (vinegar).

The residue is not friable and chemically non-toxic. Depending on local ordinances, in many places it can be put out with the regular garbage.

One such product is Peel Away 1, available at your friendly local Sherwin Williams store. There are others as well.

[m beezo]

Re: lead paint encapsulation

Thinking back to some of what Always said does make a little more sense. I have seen that happen with pricing or schedules. Say the cost is between $500 and $700 and they remember the $500 price even if it comes in at $550. So if I talked about reducing the lead dust in the house with encapsulation they might think I meant all of it.

So I will back off on all my nice customers and give it some more thought.