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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Whittier, Ca
    Posts
    251

    Default Large Scale Layout Revisited

    I started this thread a couple months back and said i would post some pics but the job got delayed and i was on another job until last week. So, here are the pics so that all those that chimed in on the thread can see what i was up against and trying to figure out.

    As i mentioned (i think) i'm a lic. contractor and i specialize in custom finish carpentry and stairwork in the residential side- this commercial stuff is new to me and i realize it's not the normal kind of stuff that gets talked about here on JLC, but the skillset that i've acquired doing custom trim work is exactly what it takes to make this type of "rainscreen facade" or cladding system work and be able to maintain the tolerances the architect and builder expected. Hey if it shows it on the "drawings/plans" what's the big deal ????? While i am out of my comfort zone doing this type of commercial work i do have to admit that it has helped me to see that i can use all my hard earned experience and skillset in other ways to earn a living esp. now when things have dried up around my neck of the woods.

    M Smith
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Central, CA
    Posts
    135

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    I think of that thread every once in a while - how did you handle the layout issues you were discussing at the time?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    La Mesa, Ca.
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    hello, this is my first post though I've been a long time lurker. the orange membrane and black horizontal membrane or tape that you are using look very much like a product called Vaproshield that I'm using on a panel system called Trespa on a project I'm working on in San Diego. what panel system are you using, if you don't mind my asking. I'm a glazier by trade and generally work on aluminum or alucobond type panels. the Trespa product that I'm using is a concealed fastener system that hangs on a horizontal rail. they also make an exposed fastener system that doesn't require the horizontal part. the layout can be a bit intense depending on how many rows of panels you have and how many of your panel joints align with other trades (plaster reveals, windows etc.) I'd like to know more about your project. thanks, Carlos

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Whittier, Ca
    Posts
    251

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    builders level/transit, lazer for shooting a plumb line (ck'd it with a plumb bob to make sure it was good) storypole on a tape measure ( fastcap makes em) and a whole lota staring at the plans trying to convert the paper version to the real world conditons of the building.

    Glazier-
    this particular project is a combination of SwissPearl (cement type of panel) and Parklex (wood veneer over phenolic core- it's from Spain) and i'm pretty sure ( i wasn't involved in that part of the job) the orange and black waterproofing membranes/fabrics are VaproShield - the last job we did in Culver City was green fabric and that was definitely VaproShield. Haven't installed any Trespa yet but we do have a job coming up soon- from what i understand they are basically the same thing. Parklex seems to have a proven track record in Europe, not sure about Trespa??

    The "other" job i was on before this happened to be in San Diego- it was a small project, a kindergarten near the "gas lamp"district. Came out great- i'll post a picture- it was all Parklex.

    I'm very intriqued with the hidden fastening system- seems like it would have very little room for error in the "girt" layout?? This stuff seems to fall into a hybrid classification as far as what tradesman/skillset is needed??? sheet metal/glazier/finish carpenter.

    Our(or my) biggest problem is this company brought me in to help them learn how to install this stuff a little late in their learning curve and they are trying to apply sheetmetal "know how" and skills and they are not use to working with these kinds of tolerances!!! the "girt" system they are using has no adjustablility built in (aside from hard plastic shimming) and the project manager and designer don't "get" that the building is not as straight and flat as their damn drawing is !! such a huge chasm that still exists between the architects/designers and their drawings and the real world!! Most of these companies that make these "rainscreen facades/cladding systems" have their own metal sub-frame (usually aluminum) that is a two pc. adjustable that may cost more up front for the mat's but way easier and faster to put up and dial in to get everything lined up and in the same plane- at least that is what makes sense and i keep telling them that is the way to do it, but to no avail yet,

    M Smith

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Whittier, Ca
    Posts
    251

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    here's pic of San Diego job- 18 mm Parklex , mostly 11.5" strips installed horizontally , very heavy, very very dense core, like cutting router base plate mat (phenolic resin) 3/8" gaps/reveals on a stainless steel (powder coated black) metal channel system.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    La Mesa, Ca.
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    M Smith, nice looking San Diego project. I took a look at the Parklex website,they've got a nice product. very similar to Trespa which only comes three thicknesses, 5/16", 3/8", and 1/2" ( their metric equivalants, actually). I also noticed that they a horizontal rail/ hidden fastening system just like Trespa has on their exterior facade page. with this system the clips that attach to the back of the panel with threaded rivets have an adjusting screw to adjust the panel up, there is no downward adjustment. in order to make sure that we only adjusted the panels upward, I calculated exact elevation of the horizontal rails then deducted 1/8" from from that elev. so the rails were installed slightly lower. the clips have a full 1" of bite on the rail so there's plenty to room to adjust the panels up to 3/8". careful layout of the metal support systems really is the key successful installations with these types of panels. the panels will fly on the wall with little trouble and since the panels cover a lot area, you can make lot of visual progress which is how most contractors and architects like to view these projects. as soon as I can figure out how to post pictures and links I'll show some of my project. Carlos

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Whittier, Ca
    Posts
    251

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    Carlos,

    does the Trespa rail/sub frame system have built in adjustability in relation the building surface?? at this point that is the most challenging part of the whole project for me.

    Do you use a total station or a theodolite to get an accurate layout?? and are your panels precut from the factory or do you cut to size on site?? with what tools ?? we're using the Festool system with dust extraction for about half - the other half was pre-cut and drilled.

    M Smith

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    La Mesa, Ca.
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    M Smith, by ajustability in in relation to the wall I take you mean accounting for the usual fluctuations in wall framing, whether it be metal stud or wood. Trespa's vertical/horizontal rail system does'nt account for this. what we are doing is installing the vertical channels hard to the wall then installing the horizontal rails to elevation. after the subsystem was on the wall I made several panel jigs ( a small piece of panel with the attachment clip on it ) and hung one on one end of the bottom horizontal row and one jig on the other end and used a rotating laser in plumb position to create a vertical reference plane between those two points. once we had, we took several other jigs and checked every screw connection on the wall to find the point on the wall that stuck out the most. that point then becomes zero point and you shim out all other points to it. because of problems I had with the laser drifting, after we readjusted our bottom horizontal row to zero I ditched the rotating laser and used pls5 to plumb every row using our bottom row as a reference. A flat plumb plane is critical to have, as in our case our panels have a metallic silver/blue directional finish which would stand out as if one panel were a different color from the one next to it.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    La Mesa, Ca.
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    The Trespa system is prefabricated by California sheet metal, a local company that is the regional fabricator for trespa. to determine sizes I laid out panel joints on the wall verifying panel dimen sions as much as possible from a set of supplied shop drawings and changing dims. where I had to. I've tried to minimize how many panels to field fab, out of approx. 200 pieces I'll have to cut or notch about 30. this product is very much like one of the Parklex systems I saw on their website in that its made of heavy craft paper resin under heat and pressure. to cut it I'm using a Ridgid 6 1/2" sidewinder with a 40 tooth trim finish blade by Freud. you want the blade to cut into the finish so as not to chip it so the panel should be upside down. if you are using a tablesaw like I've done on a couple of pieces you can have the panel finish up. your typical woodworking tools work fine with Trespa

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    La Mesa, Ca.
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    here are a couple of pics of my project, this wall is 100' x 30' then it turns the corner and goes below and up over the stairs to the 2nd floor
    Attached Images Attached Images
    glazier

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    La Mesa, Ca.
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    a couple more of our laser setup
    Attached Images Attached Images
    glazier

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Whittier, Ca
    Posts
    251

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    Carlos,

    good looking project.

    sent you a private message- bottom of area where it says "Welcome"

    M Smith

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Friday Harbor, San Juan Island, Washington
    Posts
    13,029

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    Very cool stuff, gentlemen, thanks for posting.
    Bailer Hill Construction, Inc. - Friday Harbor, WA
    Website - Facebook

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    La Mesa, Ca.
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    M Smith, got your message. I'll have to respond tomorrow if that's ok. David Meiland, thanks for checking it out. These types of panel systems aren't bad at all once you get past the learning curve. I prefer the hidden fasteners over exposed screws as I'd rather look at a wall where the panels seem to float instead of seeing screwheads. having said that, I have yet another panel system called 3-form that will wrap the elevator shaft on all four sides. this will be an exposed fastener system since the 3-form panels are translucent and you will be able to see the plaster finish behind them, so the less metal subframing the better. I've picked up a lot of information from this forum over the last few years and am happy to be able to contribute in turn. as M Smith mentioned earlier, these panels fall under the skill sets of trim carpenters, sheet metal workers, and glaziers. any of these trades should be able to do a good job with these panels. thanks again,Carlos
    glazier

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    La Mesa, Ca.
    Posts
    32

    Default Re: Large Scale Layout Revisited

    M Smith, here are a couple of pics of my last Trespa project from about 6 years ago. this job is at the UCSD campus in San Diego while I was with my last employer, also a glazing contractor. the Trespa portion of this job was 35,000 sqr. ft., most of that being a silver-gray color and the rest being a darker gray or black. the white panels are 1/8th" aluminum brake metal which was used to border many of the glass curtainwall elevations. if you look closely at the silver panels, you can see where two panels were installed upside down. Trespa typically likes a 3/8th" joint between panels but on this project the architect wanted a 1" joint which served us well when we had to change them out. the rectangular one in the center was removed and simply flipped over and reinstalled with the attachment clips reversed. the panel on the left side at the corner had to be replaced. I'll post some more pics of this job when I can find them, hows your project coming? do you have your panels yet? I also meant to ask what type of attachment the Parklex panels are using that your working with?
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    glazier

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