Union framing crews

[JayNos]

Has anyone hired a union framing crew for residential remodels? What are the pros and cons? I assume all footings would have to be dug and poured by me. How far out of the "framing" zone will the crew move to do their job? Also, is it worth the cost?

Jay

[David Meiland]

Re: Union framing crews

Never done it myself, but I've known many union and ex-union carps working in residential and some of them were really good. If you're not a contractor who's signatory to a union agreement I don't know if you can hire thru the union anyway. If that's what you're thinking of doing then I'd call the business agent and see what can be done. Is there not a residential crew you can sub to? Might be a lot less complicated.

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Union framing crews

Jay:

Do you mean to hire union carpenters to work for you and have them do your framing? If so you have to sign a union contract and hire all union carpenters (they really don't care much if you hire other non-union subcontractors, although they are suppose to). Or do you mean to hire a framing contractor who is union to do your framing?

[JohnCR]

Re: Union framing crews

Dick, I looked into that years ago and there are many other trades under the carpenter umbrella. You say they may not care, but what if they do? Are you setting yourself up for trouble? Maybe the two gate job, which always seemed pretty hypocritical to me.

Side note: Last time I was in the hall there was a tool for sale on the bulletin board: I quote " Radio Alarm Saw". Make your own interpretation.

[Dick Seibert]

Re: Union framing crews

John:

Around here the carpenters' union's business agents never checked other trades, even on larger jobs it took the Building Trades association to show up and complain to the carpenters union that carpenters were working alongside non-union plumbers or whatever. If one trade picketed the job, then the carpenters wouldn't cross the lines, but even with that we set up dual gates to get around it and our laws only allowed them to picket one gate. Of course these rules are local and vary, but that's the way it was around here prior to going right to work.

[Bob Kovacs]

Re: Union framing crews

Where do plan on finding union carpenters in NJ to do framing? Most of them don't work with anything other than metal studs and pre-fab forms.

[JMS BUILDERS]

Re: Union framing crews

Where do plan on finding union carpenters in NJ to do framing? Most of them don't work with anything other than metal studs and pre-fab forms.

THAT IS NOT FUNNY,



that is ironic which makes it even FUNNIER!

BTW I still hold a card

[dave_k]

Re: Union framing crews

The UBC will set up a residential agreement for you if you wish. I would never sign a contract with the UBC to supply labor for a residential project unless I was sure it was something I was willing to live with for the rest of my career. It's easy to get them into your life but once you're signed it's very difficult to get them out. The simple solution would be to find a contractor who uses union labor to price the work for you. If you contact them they may be able to give you some names. Laborers international also represents residential carpenters and framers so you may want to contact them. Don't sign anything though or agree to let one of their organizers have access to your employees or even give them your company name without good legal advise

[GaryJR]

Re: Union framing crews

I'm sitting here pondering why anyone would consider hiring a union crew.

And don't think for a minute you wouldn't get bullied for not taking on other union workers for the other phases of the project.

[dave_k]

Re: Union framing crews

And don't think for a minute you wouldn't get bullied for not taking on other union workers for the other phases of the project.

In my experience that's not the way it works at all. Construction workers fight for jurisdiction over claimed work and try to exclude other unions. I've sent letters in to be read in court stating that I've used union carpenters to place concrete and unload millwork when laborers international claimed that work from another contractor claimed that work. I don't have an agreement with the laborers. I use carpenter apprentices and day laborers as jobsite laborers and to do demolition when I gut stores. In some malls the laborers raise a stink and I have to bring in a signed sub (who in my case is also my electrician so it's not a big deal). Never have I been under pressure to sign with the laborers. If I did sign with another union that's where the trouble begins. They 2 unions then start fighting over who does what work. You spend a lot more time and resources on these jurisdictional disputes which are a drain on your organization and personal energy.

If I asked the average union carpenter to say install ductwork 9 out of 10 would give it a shot rather than give the job to another union. The idealogical mindset that unions are conspiring and working together to take over the industry exists in a very small minority of union workers. It's their individual market share first then fraternity between unions a distant second.

[Bob Kovacs]

Re: Union framing crews

Dave-

I think what Gary was referring to was, once the carpenter's union is on the site, you'll suddenly be visited by the BA from the electricians, the plumbers, etc. He wasn't referring to internal squabbling over what work is who's between trades.

Jay-

I guess the big question would be- why? Even if the local hall could supply you with guys capable of doing the work in a timely fashion (doubtful), do you really want to sign an agreement and end up using union carpenters on all your work? Do you realize the difference in cost, benefits, working hours, foreman/journeyman ratios, etc?

[dave_k]

Re: Union framing crews

Dave-

I think what Gary was referring to was, once the carpenter's union is on the site, you'll suddenly be visited by the BA from the electricians, the plumbers, etc. He wasn't referring to internal squabbling over what work is who's between trades.

This is what I am referring to as well. My experience is that the carpenter's BA will protect you from other BA's rather than spread word around that you are ripe for the picking. There's a little bit of gamesmanship going on now days. The UBC wants their contractors to be competitive and hire carpenters. If their contractors are signatory to other union contracts they are less competitive and won't be competitive in winning jobs for their membership. This hasn't always been the case and may not be the case in every local but the UBC has realized that their health depends on the health of their contractors. Even 10 years ago the BA's used to talk and co-operate but as the old guard dies out the leadership is being replaced with more realistic more business like leadership. There's also a major threat from company unions like CLAC who represent all the trades on a jobsite for the companies they sign.

[Overbuilders]

Re: Union framing crews

And don't think for a minute you wouldn't get bullied for not taking on other union workers for the other phases of the project.

Yup, just like they did in 'The Sopranos'. ;)

[GaryJR]

Re: Union framing crews

Dave K,

The unions are bullies and I know it first hand. They can not keep up with non-union workers and they know it and it exposes there inefficiency.

I'm getting steamed up right now thinking of all the experiences I've had and all they are are money sucking bullies who think they have the right to everything under the sun.

[MarkMc]

Re: Union framing crews

Gary, you could just go out and hire some Pinkerton's to send a free enterprise kinda message....