Andersen A-Series. Feedback, please.

[Bob Dylan]

No vinyl. No aluminum. Fibrex, pultruded fiberglass, wood, low-e-4 glass, U-values in the range of 0.28.

Prefinished wood interiors offered. Fibrex prefinished exterior trim offered.

If you know Andersen products and have used their Frenchwood hinged doors, the exterior section of the frames is made of pultruded fiberglass material, and the sills, the exterior sections, are of their extruded composite-wood-plastic material they call Fibrex

I can get all this by reading the catalog, and the product presentation certainly is good.


But how do they look for real? How do they install? How is pricing as compared to 400 series?



What do you think of the exterior trim options?

[tom struble]

i saw it at a zip wall show and saw the exterior options that come in different styles and colors...that's all i know

[KsLumberSales]

Fiberex is not a Fiberglass material. It is select wood fiber and vinyl extruded under heat and pressure with a vinyl color topcoat added.

It is the original product for Andersen Renewal, all of their window products are made with Fiberex.

The Andersen woodright DH is a fiberex sash with wood frame.

I think the new 100 series is Fiberex.

This window my have a Fiberglass frame with Fiberex sash, that would make sense.

They are late to the game with Fiberglass, Marvin Integrity is the best I have seen, M & W has one and there are many others.

Andersen is a big company and it takes them a long to time come out with new products.

[Bob Dylan]

You are right about the Marvin Integrity. Fantastic window.

Have you seen the Infinity windows by Marvin? The casements are a very nice piece of engineering.

But these new Andersens are something I would like to see for real. I have been to their HQ and plants where they do the fibrex and make the Renewal windows, and was quite impressed with the Renewal details. They learned a lot about fabrication of hollow sections when they got into the pultruded glass frames with the Frenchwood, developed almost 30 years ago. They built on that when doing the ground-up design of the Renewal line during the 90s, and now I think they have re-built their whole main platform of windows with this A-Series design.

[Dick Seibert]

Andersen built a windows that I first saw in 1998 that they called "The Millennium " (a quick Google search didn't reveal anything), a lumber yard I patronized had them up on display, they told me they were made out of recycled wood chips, PVC scraps, and aluminum waste, they were designed to be the window material of the next millennium for two reasons: 1) Large windows manufacturers were forbidden to use first growth lumber by the EPA (small window manufacturers were exempt), and 2) They were looking to a future wherein recycled materials were going to be mandated by code in homes. Later they stopped stocking them, I asked why and was told that CARB (California Air Resourced Board) was not allowing them because of high formaldehyde emissions. During that period I never saw any mention of the word "Fibrex". I was quite surprised when Andersen started selling their Renewal franchises with a particleboard window, wondering if it wasn't the same failed product used in the Millennium.

Over the last couple of years I've seen lots from the DWM Magazine relating to the EPA hearings to ban composite materials in windows, unfortunately the "More" links no-longer work, but here are two articles from E-mails I receive:

WDMA Advises EPA on Potential Formaldehyde Regulations
Members of the Window and Door Manufacturers Association (WDMA) are addressing the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) investigation into whether regulatory or other action might be appropriate to protect against potential risks posed by formaldehyde emitted from certain pressed wood products.

Door and Window Industry Voices Opinions at Formaldehyde Emissions Meeting
During its January 29, 2009, public meeting, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) heard comments regarding its investigation into determining whether and what type of regulatory action may be appropriate to protect against risks posed by formaldehyde emitted from composite wood products.

Obviously the future of composite windows is going to hinge on the ability of the manufacturers to get the formaldehyde out.

[tom struble]

there is now a fiberglass siding that uses the pulltrusion method
http://www.tectonproducts.com/index....oducts/siding/

[Bob Dylan]

Well, heck, Dick. Looks as if Andersen might get shut down and not be able to sell these windows at all!

I meant that as a joke!

But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, provided that you do a little more research.

Andersen has been out for years now with their Renewal replacement window line, sold by a dealer-installer network completely separate from their prime distribution line selling into the new construction market. The Renewal product line is mostly made with their FIBREX extruded composite material. I snipped the list of California dealer showrooms from the "Renewal by Andersen" website. The owners of any of these businesses would be good sources as to whether the products can be legitimately sold in your state, and whether pending legislation or regulatory action will shut down usage and sales.

Make some phone calls, and report back! We look forward to hearing from you.

I want to say this again, if I have not said it already. I am not a shill for Andersen. I am just looking for some feedback from the user base on a window product line that interests me.

[Dick Seibert]

Bob:

Andersen came out with the Millennium window prior to the Renewal, the Millennium was an aluminum clad finned window and was sold though normal Andersen dealers to any contractor or homeowner who wishes to purchase it, it was withdrawn form the market, and my Andersen dealer said it was because of formaldehyde emissions.

The came out with the Renewal and only sold it though franchisees (at least in this area), so I would assume that the companies on your list have franchises and do their own installations. The Renewal is aluminum clad but doesn't have a fin, it's only a block frame window the last I heard, a man who worked for me went to the local Andersen franchisee looking for a job, he didn't go to work for them when they explained how they installed their block frame Renewal windows with no flashing.

As I posted above all composite window products are under attack by the EPA, since I get DMA Magazine I'll post the next article on the progress of the EPA, which is not banning them, but making them reduce the formaldehyde in the products, the manufacturers are arguing that they can't make composite windows without formaldehyde and are arguing for higher limits. In the meantime CARB has given the window manufacturers a temporary exemption:

47. The ATCM includes an exemption for windows. Does the exemption include bay windows? Yes. Requirements for fabricators include an exemption for any windows if the window product contains less than five percent by volume of hardwood plywood, particleboard, or medium density fiberboard combined in relation to the total volume of the finished window product. The definition of a window specifies that a frame includes jambs, stiles, sashes, and rails, and excludes sills, window headers and window seats. Because sills, window headers, and window seats are excluded from the definition of a frame, they cannot be factored into the exemption. Therefore, if sills, window headers, and window seats contain composite wood, the composite wood must comply with the ATCM and the finished window product must be labeled appropriately.

48. Other than windows, what other exemptions does the ATCM contain? Exemptions from the ATCM have also been provided for exterior doors and garage doors if these products contain less then 3 percent by volume of hardwood plywood, particleboard, or medium density fiberboard combined, in relation to the total volume of the finished door product made from composite wood products. Finished goods made by local government agencies and school districts that are not offered for sale in California are exempt. The ATCM does not apply to finished goods sold outside of California or to products subject to federal requirements governing the construction of manufacturing home. ¹

BTW, This applies to all composite windows, not just Andersen's Renewal line, our local Andersen Renewal franchisee has gone out of business, attached are some some comments I've gleaned, the franchise model never works in construction. As far as I know a contractor or homeowner still can't buy the Renewal line in this area, even with the franchisee out of business, it would seem if they want to sell the line they are going to have to get out of the franchise contract with HomeWorks and sell another franchise to someone else, or sell them through their normal dealer network to regular contractors and owners.

Pella has a similar situation with all their window products, I used to buy Pella windows and doors direct from Pella in Pella Iowa, in the 80s they sold Pella Window Store franchises in our area and would no-longer sell me their windows direct, making me buy them through their protected franchises, but I've always been able to buy the Pella (accordion) doors direct, of course back in the 70s I bought Andersen windows direct from my local Andersen manufacturers' representative, then Andersen started marketing through lumber yards and eventually through even through Home Depot.

I've done a little research on the NFRC site and see that the Renewal is rated the same as the Millennium, I suspect that it must be the same window without a fin, otherwise the NFRC would require separate approvals, also note the lousy energy efficiency.

BTW, I like and use the 400 Series and the Frenchwood Series sliding and French doors, just wish they'd make them triple glazed.



¹ http://www.arb.ca.gov/toxics/compwoo...tation/faq.htm

[Bob Dylan]

You had better stop using those 400 series Andersen products, if you wish to stay on the right side of the EPA.

Is the EPA, a federal operation, different in CA than elsewhere? You could consider moving to someplace like Texas, couldn't you? ;-)

The Frenchwood hinged patio door has a Fibrex extrusion making up the exterior and hidden substructure of its sill. The 400 series Woodwright doublehung window has Fibrex as its exterior sash, frame, and sill parts. The 400 series tilt-wash DH has a Fibrex sill. All this is clearly shown in callouts in their 2009 Product Guide For Professionals manual.

If Renewal was pulled out of CA, it likely had more to do with the economy and the housing scene, and nothing to do with any EPA mandate that they cease selling the product.

[Dick Seibert]

Bob:

Yes CARB sets the rules in California, the EPA is Federal and appears to be following CARB on all the VOC issues. What's really bringing this all to a head with the EPA is the Chinese sheetrock thing, it's no just Chinese sheetrock, it's our domestic sheetrock as well, I think the real culprit that they can't continue to hide is the high levels of formaldehyde in our homes interacting with the sheetrock sulfur offgassing.

"As expected, the contaminated Chinese samples gave off high levels of sulfur gases. But all but one of the U.S. samples emitted sulfur gases, as well - not at levels as high as the defective Chinese product, but unexpected. Perhaps more surprising, "There were some American products that we tested that had higher emission than some of the new Chinese products that we tested.¹

¹ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Ch...ll_controversy

[KsLumberSales]

"The Renewal is aluminum clad but doesn't have a fin, it's only a block frame window the last I heard, a man who worked for me went to the local Andersen franchisee looking for a job, he didn't go to work for them when they explained how they installed their block frame Renewal windows with no flashing"

Sorry, Renewal is not aluminum clad but all fiberex.

They have both block frame for insert application or and option for full frame with nail fin.

Most push the insert because they are vinyl window / home improvement companies first and that is what they understand the best.

The full frame with fin also jumps the price big time.

[Dick Seibert]

Ks:

Thanks for the information, do they still only sell the Renewal through their franchisees, or can contractors buy them through lumber yards or other dealers?

Why does adding a fin dramatically increase the price? It must be a different window, how is it different? Is it still called Renewal when they add the fin, or is it called the Millennium? I see the Millennium name is retained in the NFRC Directory along with the Renewal name as Renewal/Millennium.

[KsLumberSales]

Dick, Renewal is sold only thru their dealer network no access to it by contractors. It cannot be used in new construction or even a remodel.

Window replacement only you can lose you franchise agreement is you violate this policy. They do not want them in competition with the core Andersen offering.

They are looking for high pressure vinyl window companies, sit in the house for four hours and close the first time. If you leave without the sale throw the lead away because the next high pressure guy will sell it.

The frame full frame is quite a bit heavier than the block/insert frame, it will be whatever wall depth you need vs. 3-1/4" for the regular insert window.

But all of the Renewal product offering, windows, sliders, double hungs and casements are all Fiberex. If they do doors they go have to use Andersen patio door offerings since they do not make Patio doors out of Fiberex. They sell Therma Tru entry doors or KML on the high end.

I never heard Renewal reference Millennium at anytime. (I sold them briefly a couple of years ago)

[Dick Seibert]

Ks:

Thanks for the information.

The NFRC Directory is the code/industry source of information:

Manufacturer: | Andersen Corporation
Series Name: | Renewal/Millenium/System 2 Casement
Operator Type: |CSDV¹

¹ http://search.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cp...pdnum=AND-N-31