Pre-contract checklist for client

[Dancing Dan]

Just had a minor set-to with an architect we're working with - a detail he hadn't drawn that the clients didn't really want anyway, etc. So it got me thinking about a handout for both clients and arch's, about what a complete set of drawings look like, what the consequences of incomplete drawings are, etc. That led to wider thoughts about a piece on GC/HO/Arch responsiblities and obligations. I know a lot of these things are out there already - probably The Process has some of it. But I thought I'd put out the call and see what's out there - anyone have anything they're willing to share?

[vnativo]

I know a lot of these things are out there already - probably The Process has some of it

WHat is "The Process"?

[Dancing Dan]

Sorry - it's a magical document that the late Sonny Lykos shared many times on the site, and has been modified by various of us for our own use.

Here is the most recent mention of it, I think.

[GaryJR]

Sonny certainly left his mark didn't he

[Allan Edwards]

Just had a minor set-to with an architect we're working with - a detail he hadn't drawn that the clients didn't really want anyway, etc. So it got me thinking about a handout for both clients and arch's, about what a complete set of drawings look like, what the consequences of incomplete drawings are, etc. That led to wider thoughts about a piece on GC/HO/Arch responsiblities and obligations. I know a lot of these things are out there already - probably The Process has some of it. But I thought I'd put out the call and see what's out there - anyone have anything they're willing to share?

I don't have a checklist but I have a contract that is pretty clear as to what is covered in my contract regarding plans and spec's and who has the responsibilty if something isn't covered on the plans.

[vnativo]

I don't have a checklist but I have a contract that is pretty clear as to what is covered in my contract regarding plans and spec's and who has the responsibilty if something isn't covered on the plans.

Can we see it?

[Allan Edwards]

Can we see it?

You can if you are a member of the GHBA.

http://www.myghba.com/cbcouncil.php

Otherwise, I would be excommunicated!

[Allan Edwards]

Just so I don’t come off as a jerk, the contract says, in essence, that the contractor is not responsible for the plans being correct and if they are not correct or if they don’t conform with codes or other regulations, the owner is responsible for any corrections that must be made. This is assuming plans were done by a third party.

[Dancing Dan]

That's probably helpful, Allan - I've got something in my contract about how we charge for any time spent correcting drawings.

But what I'm looking for is just a description of what a complete set of plans looks like (dimensioned, interior elevations, electrical, window & door sched., etc). Thought it would actually make the arch's life easier - wouldn't have to convince the client of the need for more drawings. And it would make it easier for me if I have a complete set before I actually break ground (what a concept!).

Anyway, if no one has it I'll give it a try and post the results.

[Allan Edwards]

Site plan
Foundation plan
Frame plan
Floor plans
Reflected ceiling
Electrical plan
All exterior elevations
Cross sections
Interior elevations of all walls
Door and window schedule
Exterior cornice detail
Wall detail
Interior cornice, molding, casing, base details

These are basic, you could certainly have more sheets and detail.

[Alex_Saloutos]

Just had a minor set-to with an architect we're working with - a detail he hadn't drawn that the clients didn't really want anyway, etc.

A couple of thoughts:

1) I don't understand with what the set-to with the architect was about. He didn't draw something and the client didn't want it so everything should be fine.

2) Job complete checklists for drawings are a great tool. I've worked with clients to develop these and they've been very helpful eliminating waste.

3) I'd suggest starting with a list of the drawings you need and then make a check list of what should/can be included on each one that you can use to review them. Each job you'd do would have a set of checklists to go along with it.

4) The checklists can be a work in progress. They don't have to be 100% perfect from the get go. As you work with them you can add to them and improve them as you go along.

I hope this helps.

Alex

[jud aley]

Dan-
A few years back Paul Eldrenkamp wrote an article for JLC about a document he called a “Plan Review Checklist” We have used his check list on several occasions with architects and home owners to review plans and make them aware of what is missing and what more we might need. If you search all of Paul’s articles here you will probably find it.

And here is some language from our contract that might help you deal with this type of situation in the future, like most things in this business we learned this the hard and costly way.

"Unless clearly drawn on plans or clearly written in job specifications, construction details such as width of tile grout lines, width and location of cabinet filler strips, window sill widths and returns, moulding reveals, location of recessed lights, and the like, will fall to the standard installation detail and procedure of the tradesperson installing the item or material, whether Contractor or Subcontractor. If Owner wishes to change these details after their installation Owner will sign a written change order detailing the changes and absorb labor and material expenses to effect such changes.
Contractors’ assumptions and conditions are given precedence over specifications, specifications having precedence over plans and change orders having precedence over all."

Dan, are you going to be in Providence for JLC Live? -Jud

[Alex_Saloutos]

Jud, good memory!

Paul calls it the Construction Document Review Checklist. Here's his article on it:

http://www.byggmeister.com/article_cdrc.shtml

There's a copy posted at The Contractor's Club:

http://www.thecontractorsclub.com/do...ea6732f6c8a24e

This is a great tool!

--Alex

[Dancing Dan]

Man, my goal is to someday be half as smart as Paul Eldrenkamp. Every time I have what I think is a clever idea, I discover that he implemented a whole system around it 5 years ago. Goddam show-off.

Anyway, it looks like a great idea (although not as great as the excellent spreadsheet the ever-modest Jud developed and wrote about in this article.

But what I was thinking about actually is more something I could give both the client and architect, more than something for internal use (although that is presumably even more valuable in the long term) - something that spells out what we need and why we need it, and the consequences of not getting it.

And no, Jud, sadly I can't get to JLC this year - scheduling conflict on the home front combined with money worries. If it was just me I might sneak down, but the whole point (and fun) was bringing the whole crew. I'll have to make my east coast road trip this spring.

[tayriver]

Dan - I think I might have an idea of what you're after, and it sounds like a great idea! I sort of pictured an easy to read digest that covers basic requirements - you know, the stuff that never gets done.

I have a couple of handouts (e.g."Surviving Floor Finishing") that are sort of light, non-technical, and owner-friendly. Is that the approach you're considering?

I could really see this being useful. Of course, you don't want to throw the architects under a bus, but it would be helpful to gently nudge them towards more complete drawings. It might even be a sales tool for remodelers asked by HO'ers to bid on non-existent plans ("How much is a bathroom?") - could be an opportunity to sell design services, price planning, etc.

Let me know if I'm on the right track here.