Hourly rate for high end trim job

[charlesc]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

What is the difference in charging someone more because they can pay more and charging someone more because it is a job you dont want to do? You are still charging more than your usual rate just using a different justification for it. If one is taking advantage of a customer so is the other. You either charge your normal rate or you dont. If you vary your rate for any reason other than your costs or potential liabilities you are taking advantage of a customer based on some subjective reason.

[davenorthup]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

What is the difference in charging someone more because they can pay more and charging someone more because it is a job you dont want to do? You are still charging more than your usual rate just using a different justification for it. If one is taking advantage of a customer so is the other. You either charge your normal rate or you dont. If you vary your rate for any reason other than your costs or potential liabilities you are taking advantage of a customer based on some subjective reason.

I figured this might come up and it makes sense, to an extent for me.

I do not have different prices for different neighborhoods per se like many people do (not specifically here). That is what I was getting at.

I set my prices based on my needs and desires and not someones level of ability to pay. The customer has the ability to determine if they want to pay my price, as does the one in the original post. Which I assumed was following a "neighborhood" mark up way of setting prices; which I dislike immensely.

My higher end customers usually do pay more in price; b/c the demand a higher level of service; not b/c I feel they can afford it.

As far as pricing something higher b/c you do not want to do it; there is nothing wrong with that. I could dig ditches all day long but it will cost you more (no matter who you are) b/c I hate digging ditches and it kills your body faster. But if you pay me enough, I'll do it.

Kinda like buying a TV - anyone can go in and buy one for the same price at the corner store. They do not look you over and determine your ability to pay before disclosing the price to you - nor should a contractor. There are also many different price levels of TV's to choose from for everyone.

[philthegreek]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

trimdaddy,
In CT, what you pay in WC for a helper/apprentice is the same for any carpenter. WC is based on a 40hr workweek. So be prepared to pay up front and hope for refunds later. It works out to about 41 cents on the dollar. If you hire a roofer on the books, 52 cents on the dollar. If you pay $15.00/hr, you will pay $12,792.00 for the annual policy. Now your general liability will go up as well since you now have increased you exposure with an employee. Expect an initial 3 fold increase. If you paid say, $800/policy premium, expect around $2400.00. Do you understand where I'm going with this?? To operate in a legitimate manner takes a serious investment and has no "shortcuts". Penalties for fraud in employment are no joke, and once branded, your done. If you have true subs, then you must have sub-contractor Contracts with each one, they must use their own tools, their own insurance policies, etc. Good luck on your bid and remember no good deed goes unpunished;)

phil

[Bob scott]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

trimdaddy,
In CT, what you pay in WC for a helper/apprentice is the same for any carpenter. WC is based on a 40hr workweek. So be prepared to pay up front and hope for refunds later. It works out to about 41 cents on the dollar. If you hire a roofer on the books, 52 cents on the dollar. If you pay $15.00/hr, you will pay $12,792.00 for the annual policy. Now your general liability will go up as well since you now have increased you exposure with an employee. Expect an initial 3 fold increase. If you paid say, $800/policy premium, expect around $2400.00. Do you understand where I'm going with this?? To operate in a legitimate manner takes a serious investment and has no "shortcuts". Penalties for fraud in employment are no joke, and once branded, your done. If you have true subs, then you must have sub-contractor Contracts with each one, they must use their own tools, their own insurance policies, etc. Good luck on your bid and remember no good deed goes unpunished;)

phil

Phil,

You have some outragous workers comp. rates. Your guys must be dropping like flies . LOL

Around here (Boston) W/C rates for a carpenter are 7.5%. If his subs are businesses and they have a W/C policy, he just gets a certificate from them and does not pay his company.


Dave,

It doesn't look like trimdaddy is trying to gouge the wealthy to me. I'm sure your standard rate to the wealthy (and the poor) is more than his "raised rate" of $45 per hour. He is just trying to get a little closer to what most carpenter peasants earn.

Bob

[jobercian]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

I do agree with Dave that often higher end jobs cost more per hour , because they are usually more involved, demand higher level of service, etc.

An offshoot of that are people that beat you down in price, then demand a higher level of service and always want more (preferably for no extra charge)
We all know those folks because are stomach starts grumbling the minute those people start speaking, but we do the job anyway...

Time after time, I find the most agreeable people to be solidly middle-class (what's left of the middle-class at least) folks who really appreciate the work and truly enjoy the improvements they see, enjoying them as an investment in their happiness. (and hopefully resale value)

[Jerrald Hayes]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

Trimdaddy it seems to me after re-reading your topic here and over in the BreakTime forums there are some of us (including me) that may have misread how you are really thinking about this opportunity.

I think a lot of us were thinking that you saw this project as a good opportunity or stepping stone to launch yourself into the contracting business when in reailty it's really about maximizing what you can make on this one project. When this project is over I now think you don't have any plans to take the crew you've assembled and move on to another project or projects. You're not really talking about running a legitimate business. You're really talking about an ad hoc black market underground cowboy operation, the kind that underbids and undercuts those of use who are really trying to run a business.

Or are you really talking about setting yourself up as a legitimate business and just not getting that across with the language you are using?

The reality is that while I have no real objection to anyone trying to get the maximum amount of money they can for their representative value in your case I not so sure value you can deliver is all what you think it is.

When you say:

...I am trying to establish how much above that rate I am worth if I end up doing alot more than just trim labor. (design, ordering, organization, HO slave) If my rates sound off than your coming from a dif background than I am (commmercial..union..?)

I'm thinking that while any extra time you spend doing more than "just trim labor" you absolutely need to make sure you get compensated for I really don't think any of that necessarily justifies a higher rate.

Do you have "outstanding design skills and qualifications" or are just going to give your comments on design from a trim carpenters viewpoint about how difficult or time consuming the particular design element in question might be? I'm not sure what the big deal their is.

As for ordering materials I don't really know of any organizations that pay their office staff that order materials more than they do their field carpenters who do the installation although I sure there might be some that do out there so given that in your case you material ordering is probably not going to be on your dime anyway you are arguably going to be worth less that clerk capacity than you are worth as a skilled carpenter. Still you do need to make sure your client does compensate you for the time you do spend ordering materials regardless of whether you do it on the job or at home.

And I am wondering if by "organization" do you mean "project management"? If so are you really a skilled and qualified project manager or just someone who has risen into that position by default?

Echoing words that I written here before, just as there are some naturally good carpenters who everything seems to come naturally to there are also individuals who are naturally and innately talented at managing projects but they are just as rare as those natural carpenters. Most need training and education in project management skills and techniques or need years of experience. Unfortunately most companies rely on waiting for years of trial and error experience to set in rather than education and training so the lot of us are forced to suffer through poorly managed and scheduled projects.

Most PMs in the building and remodeling trades are what's called Accidental Project Managers which means they sort of rose in to the realm of project management by accident. For instance a particularly good carpenter is asked to ascend to "manage" a project figuring well he's a good carpenter he can probably mange too thinking they are 'one and the same thing'. Another example is where a contractor accidentally grows his company into a position where they are now managing projects. We rise into management accidentally. (The other meaning people in the project management profession give to Accidental Project Manger scenario is that they tend to manage accidentally or by accident which is unfortunately true.)
While your time spent managing the project is worth being compensated for again is it really worth more than the time you spend as a skilled trim carpenter? Are you really delivering more VALUE in a project management role than you are in as a trim carpenter? Since you mentioned over on Breaktime that:

He does have a supervisior on site everyday who has 30+ yrs experience including many as a GC.

...Just what do you see in your "organization" role as being more valuable and that would make you worth more per hour in that role than what you are worth as a good solid trim carpenter?
As for "HO slave," by that do you mean their gopher? While again I don't think you should let your client take advantage of you by getting something for free but I'm really not so sure that makes you and an hour of your time anymore valuable and worthy of a higher rate.
This criticism might seem a little harsh but if your client is successful skilled top flight business man as you say he is I think maybe you should expect these same hard but perfectly fair criticisms and questions and be prepared to answer them.
In summing up my thinking for a number of reasons I don't think you are really necessarily prepared to approach this as opportunity to jump start you into the trim carpentry business and you should just try and negotiate the best deal you can for yourself as a 1099er Independent Contractor working for your client and if down deep inside you, you do someday want to run your own business use your free time to learn more about the business of the business.

Do get yourself hooked up with Ellen Rohr's book How Much Should I Charge?: Pricing Basics for Making Money Doing What You Love so you can get yourself set up with a billing rate that works and you might also want to use my shareware Capacity Based Markup Worksheet as a tool to help you set up your rate.

Forget about trying to contract the other carpenters yourself because I think your naiveté on that issue might leave you exposed both from an insurance liability standpoint as well as on an employee vs. sub tax liability issue too. (see: JLC Update: Subcontractor Misclassification.

Instead as part of your agreement with you client say you'll agree to consult with him and make recommendations on who HE should contract and/or hire and let him pay the Workers Comp on HIS temporary employees.
And and if you do someday want to become a 'trim carpentry contractor' rather than just a 'trim carpenter' here are a few steps you might want to take.

Re:

...Because of this I feel it is impossible to give him a sq. ft. price on the job, and it needs to be done T+M.

You have got to forget about thinking about trim houses using sq. ft. price. Read my piece (The Hidden Dangers of Square Foot Estimating) and the articles it links too. Learn what Unit Cost Estimating is all about. Also you'll probably want to read Producing an Interior Finish Bid.

Then check out the reading on My Suggested Syllabus and Texts for for a Hypothetical Contracting 101 Class and also get yourself a copy of William Asdals Defensive Estimating. It hadn't yet been published when I first wrote my Contracting 101 list so that's why is not on there but I have written about it since here: Estimating Book Recommendations.

Good luck and best wishes.
__________________
J. Jerrald Hayes
Quietly Re-Thinking Out Loud

[Shawn Prentice]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

How much should I charge? is on indefinite backorder from Amazon, at least that's what I was told when I tried to get it recently. Try this http://www.barebonesbiz.com/detail_hmsic.html

It's a bit more, but you also get the download to read until the hard copy gets to you.

Off topic somewhat. Thanks Jerrald for all the book suggestions. I have started reading some and have others in the mail.

[Mueller Construction]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

You're not really talking about running a legitimate business. You're really talking about an ad hoc black market underground cowboy operation, the kind that underbids and undercuts those of use who are really trying to run a business.

If the unlicensed, “ad hoc” contractors would just charge what we charge to level the playing field I would have less objection to them. But they usually want to know our prices so they can underbid us by a few hundred to steal the jobs away. This is not necessarily directed at the OP.

[JMS BUILDERS]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

If the unlicensed, “ad hoc” contractors would just charge what we charge to level the playing field I would have less objection to them. But they usually want to know our prices so they can underbid us by a few hundred to steal the jobs away. This is not necessarily directed at the OP.

Sad to agree bro,

Even sorrier that this is actually happing in my neck of the woods

More sorry that this poster didn't call

You my, friend are missing a great opportunity here

good luck to you

[archmolding]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

For a Basic Trim Package Labor only:
-Base
-Case
-Doors installed
-Window trim
-closet pole & shelf..
-Cabinets installed.

you could use a sq/ft price to get the numbers going, to start.

I will refer to past jobs that had a simular scope of work, with simular sq/ft and do the math to see roughly where I'm at to start...but then I always break it down...you really have too. Especially it they end up changing things on you.

Great artical BTW (Hidden dangers of sq/ft estimates) I agree. But, I think once someone has enough custom homes under thier belt, they can get closer than 20%. I know we can...but I check it against my idemized costs as well. And previous awarded contracts. I would never contract out that way without covering all my bases.
Again that is for The basic Trim package Only! Anything special (ie: Wainscot, Custom openings, mantels etc)... All get price tags.

Jerrald,
GREAT blogging site BTW I added it to my Favs. Lots of great info. Thank you

[BThomas]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

Jobercian
"I do agree with Dave that often higher end jobs cost more per hour , because they are usually more involved, demand higher level of service, etc."

I don't believe that is what Dave is saying- correct me if I'm wrong Dave.
Higher end customers expect more and the detail takes more time. The rate does not change - They pay more because the same job takes more time not because they are paying a higher rate.
BillT

[jobercian]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

sorry- I didn't mean to say they cost more per hour, more like more per sq/ft or linear foot. Yes- it is about the detail and service. Sort of like I can make it look 95% perfect for $1000 or 99% perfect for $5000.

[davenorthup]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

Jobercian
"I do agree with Dave that often higher end jobs cost more per hour , because they are usually more involved, demand higher level of service, etc."

I don't believe that is what Dave is saying- correct me if I'm wrong Dave.
Higher end customers expect more and the detail takes more time. The rate does not change - They pay more because the same job takes more time not because they are paying a higher rate.
BillT

You are both correct in what I was meaning.... The details and higher level of service will drive the costs; not the neighborhood rate.

[jjacksonwoodworks]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

trimdaddy,as you can see there are those on these boards who are quick with great advice and are helpful,and there are those who try to scare you away from taking the next step in your business.Some even think you need to go through them before taking a job "in their jurisdiction".Just talk to your accountant or lawyer about your business structure and the way you need to go about running your business,they are familiar with your situation and will give you sound advice.

[Mueller Construction]

Re: Hourly rate for high end trim job

The ones to watch out for are the engineers, they are typically cheap and picky... a bad combination.