Building Green and Associated Risks

[Overbuilders]

Just when you thought you were doing the right thing, playing by the rules, learning and building using all the latest technologies, living life in a sustainable bowl of cherries...

Then, all of a sudden, POW! A lawsuit, right in the kisser. What's a trendy GC/Builder to do?


http://enr.ecnext.com/coms2/article_nefiar080709a

[OGR8ONE]

I'm sure that Dave, David, Kye , Lavrans , et al, can rationalize this quite irrationally.

[Lavrans]

What's to argue?

These are all the problems with new systems. LEEDS is voluntary, but when people start wanting to get it without understanding what that means- trouble will happen.

Same with most of the "green" things. There will/is a big problem with people assuming green technology must be new technology- but I happen to agree with Dick that most of the new "green" technology will wind up being a resounding failure. Those failures will convince people that building green isn't worth it, or doesn't work, not knowing that they were building "green" not green.

At this point building well is the greenest method of building- and I see plenty of "green" buildings getting built that won't stand the test of time- meaning they are green only for point of sale.

But here's the difference- I think those lawsuits are the method of weeding out the crap. Most crap is created by large companies able to afford all the money to qualify it and market it as whatever they want. And they will sell it as long as they can, no matter how bad a product it is, how dangerous, etc., ,until they are litigated into pulling it from the market.

[davenorthup]

Just when you thought you were doing the right thing, playing by the rules, learning and building using all the latest technologies, living life in a sustainable bowl of cherries...

Then, all of a sudden, POW! A lawsuit, right in the kisser. What's a trendy GC/Builder to do?


http://enr.ecnext.com/coms2/article_nefiar080709a

You mean what is an architect to do? Or what a commercial builder that builds offices for a defense contractor to do?

Lets keep it in context Rick.

But yes - new innovation and risks, have their potential liabilities. That is the nature of the beast and if the market says green, you can go that way or not. That is a simple choice - the risk is not arbitrarily placed on anyone.

Rick - you've chosen to market towards "green / energy efficient" clients yourself. I suspect b/c you see a good market out there? Obviously, you found the risk to be worth the reward?

Not sure what the point is; except that doing things is risky and it sucks to be those architects mentioned in the story.

Not trying to discount the fact that new things always result in new mistakes. Choose to run your program based on your comfort level. Right?

Just stirring the pot or what? :)

BTW - saw one of the Hilstrand brothers in town today. Seems they also have a hydro seeding business as well as crabbing....

[Overbuilders]

You mean what is an architect to do? Or what a commercial builder that builds offices for a defense contractor to do?

Lets keep it in context Rick.

You know architects won't be the sole party named in lawsuits. Everyone with insurance, which of course means everyone, will be dragged into the fray, and your attorney will ask the court that you please be excused because you were 'only building what was drawn'. Regardless of the judge's decision, it will cost you money. Now that's what I call context. ;)

But yes - new innovation and risks, have their potential liabilities. That is the nature of the beast and if the market says green, you can go that way or not. That is a simple choice - the risk is not arbitrarily placed on anyone.

Lavrans answered it best, above. However, I don't believe green will die a slow, agonizing death as he describes, rather the good practices will survive and the fads will simply fade and be ridiculed some years later. And no one will admit to wearing eco-friendly fluorescent ties with leisure suits.

Rick - you've chosen to market towards "green / energy efficient" clients yourself. I suspect b/c you see a good market out there? Obviously, you found the risk to be worth the reward?

What I have attempted to date can be described as 'tip of the iceberg' at best. I have an opportunity to partner with an industry leading company that walks the walk. They want me to do an immersion/conversion. It's sort of scary because they believe in me almost more than I do.

Not sure what the point is; except that doing things is risky and it sucks to be those architects mentioned in the story.

Not trying to discount the fact that new things always result in new mistakes. Choose to run your program based on your comfort level. Right?

Just stirring the pot or what? :)

Always, always, always...

BTW - saw one of the Hilstrand brothers in town today. Seems they also have a hydro seeding business as well as crabbing....

Where, in a bar after the catch?

[davenorthup]

In a bar?

At the lumber yard of course.

[user843839]

But here's the difference- I think those lawsuits are the method of weeding out the crap. Most crap is created by large companies able to afford all the money to qualify it and market it as whatever they want. And they will sell it as long as they can, no matter how bad a product it is, how dangerous, etc., ,until they are litigated into pulling it from the market.

Excellent points. Things change, limits get pushed, and then there is push back. Lawsuits are horrible things until you need to use the legal system to protect your own interests. Then they're great.

Asbestos was touted as a wonder product. And in many ways it is. But as we discovered, it has potentially horrible aspects as well. Even back then we seemed very susceptible to marketing hype. We seem to see things in extremes .... black and white .... wonderful or horrible.

"Green" will be over-hyped, hijacked by marketeers, over promised, and under delivered (kind of like Britany Spears, et al). But the central ideas will remain, and become integrated with the way things are normally done. In many cases the people who suffer the early losses will be the same ones who over-promise and hype the concepts. Nothing is perfect. The only certainty is change.

[Kye GC]

Just when you thought you were doing the right thing, playing by the rules, learning and building using all the latest technologies, living life in a sustainable bowl of cherries...

Then, all of a sudden, POW! A lawsuit, right in the kisser. What's a trendy GC/Builder to do?


http://enr.ecnext.com/coms2/article_nefiar080709a

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[finehomes]

Green is a joke and people will come to see it for what it is....overpriced garbage. The best thing to do is build well using quality construction practices and don't cut corners.

My new neighbor just came over crying the other day about how high their electric bill is in their new ICF home they just finished. How could that possibly be??? They have 2" of foam insulation on each side of 8" concrete walls and brick veneer. My answer....cuz that stuff is garbage.

I have a standard 2 X 6 wall with Blown in Bibs insulation and Low E windows and a much larger house and my electric bill with two air conditioners running full time at 68 degrees was way way way lower than his.

Maybe the green will turn to brown cuz its crap!!!

[Dick Seibert]

Excellent post Lavrans, the longer you are in this business the more you learn as you see the failures of new products, and here I agree with Dave too, it's the fault of the greedy manufacturers trying to outsell each other.

New products are another area of concern. “What happens if a system or product fails or doesn’t live up to its promise?” asks Musica. He says this is very significant given recent high energy costs, when energy efficiency often is a key selling point for a green building. “If a product fails and the manufacturer’s warranty has expired, the owner will likely go after the designer,” Musica says.

“If a product fails and the manufacturer’s warranty has expired, the owner will likely go after the designer,” Musica says.

This is wrong, privity of contract requires that the owner go after those he is in contract with, and that's the architect and the builder.

I have to agree with San Francisco mayor Gavin Newsome (whom I seldom agree with), "The greenest building is an existing building."

[David Meiland]

I'm sure that Dave, David, Kye , Lavrans , et al, can rationalize this quite irrationally.

All right! Barry wins "Stupid Post of The Day". Win again tomorrow and you've got the whole week wrapped up!

[OGR8ONE]

David, you've missed the subtle existentialism of my posts again. You've got to raise yourself to a higher plane. Feel the love. Perhaps attending an Obama rally would help.

[David Meiland]

A higher plane? There are a bunch of average Cessnas parked down at the airport tie-ups right now, just like every weekend. Then, there's a huge twin turbo sporting pontoons with wheels on them... land anywhere you want. That plane's pretty high, there's a ladder to get up to the door. Is that the higher plane you mean?

[David Meiland]

I have a standard 2 X 6 wall with

It's unlikely your wall system is better insulated than your neighbor's is. He may have lousy windows or something else causing more air leakage, or maybe he's running up the energy bill doing something else. As far as I've read the firms that spec efficient wood buildings either spec SIPS, ICFs, or wood framing with SPF. BIBs is pretty good and is what I've used so far but I'd start exploring ICF if concrete wasn't so incredibly expensive here.

[Kye GC]

Green is a joke and people will come to see it for what it is....overpriced garbage. The best thing to do is build well using quality construction practices and don't cut corners.

My new neighbor just came over crying the other day about how high their electric bill is in their new ICF home they just finished. How could that possibly be??? They have 2" of foam insulation on each side of 8" concrete walls and brick veneer. My answer....cuz that stuff is garbage.

I have a standard 2 X 6 wall with Blown in Bibs insulation and Low E windows and a much larger house and my electric bill with two air conditioners running full time at 68 degrees was way way way lower than his.

Maybe the green will turn to brown cuz its crap!!!

As usual a pretty ignorant statement. First of all, it sounds like you have a pretty "green" house, second, just because your neighbors house is ICF doesn't mean it was designed to perform well.

An extreme example would be an ICF cube with 100% south faceing glazing. I'd say running even the biggest ACs to cool it would be futile.

If it doesn't perform, it's not green.

Kye