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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Traverse City, MI
    Posts
    101

    Default Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    Gentlemen - I am looking at re-roofing a summer cottage. It is in Northern Michigan. The owners winterize it every year, and have no plans for ever installing a furnace.

    Do I need ice and water shield? Part of me says that it is required on all new roofs, but the other part of me says that it is to prevent ice dams backing up in the winter due to heat escaping through the roof. And if there's no heat, there should be no ice dams.

    Just looking for some opinions here. I am a bit skeptical of not using it, but if it isn't required, why put forth the time and expense.

    Keep in mind, I am not looking to cut corners, if it is required, it gets used.

    Thanks.

    Tim

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    7,492

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    I would. What if the guy sells the house to someone who wants to use it year-round? Or write the warranty terms to specifically void the warranty if the house is heated. But it's tough to enforce. What if they bring a bunch of portable electric heaters? How will you know it was heated?

    dg

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    San Diego (Northern Mexico)
    Posts
    3,976

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    If you mean "cottage", as in "not that big", I would think you would lean towards the cautious side. For ice dam prevention, you usually only install Ice & Water Shield from fascia to 4' above wall line. That's pretty cheap insurance, IMO. And just because it is not used in winter by the present owners, at this time, does not mean it won't be used in winter by a possible future owner.
    Tom

    Support your country always, support your government only when they deserve it! - Mark Twain
    This fall, fire them all, DON'T RE-ELECT ANYONE!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    9,252

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by TCoggins View Post
    Gentlemen - I am looking at re-roofing a summer cottage. It is in Northern Michigan. The owners winterize it every year, and have no plans for ever installing a furnace.

    Do I need ice and water shield? Part of me says that it is required on all new roofs, but the other part of me says that it is to prevent ice dams backing up in the winter due to heat escaping through the roof. And if there's no heat, there should be no ice dams.

    Just looking for some opinions here. I am a bit skeptical of not using it, but if it isn't required, why put forth the time and expense.

    Keep in mind, I am not looking to cut corners, if it is required, it gets used.

    Thanks.

    Tim
    Your talking just the perimeter right? Often it is used on complete roofs up here.

    For the added small expense I see no reason not to - if only you sleep better at night.

    I am bidding a entire package that will use I&W on the entire roof - some 20 rolls. Now that is expensive..

    Just saw Tom's post - what he said...:)
    “Racism is man's gravest threat to man - the maximum of hatred for a minimum of reason.”
    Abraham J. Heschel (Jewish theologian and philosopher, 1907-1972)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Traverse City, MI
    Posts
    101

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    Thanks for the responses, guys. I was leaning toward using it, if only for peace of mind. Makes the decision to use it quite easy.

    Thanks again.

    Tim

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    150

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    In MN the code says eaves edge to 2' past the wall. Last year an exception for detached unheated garages was put into the code. Problem is, I've seen detached unheated structures have worse dams then a heated, properly insulated, structure. As the sun heats up the shingles and melts the snow, it may already be starting to freeze underneath the roof deck.

    I'd put it on everything!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    62

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    I can't imagine not using it. I have a hunting cabin in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, which sits unheated most of the year, and I sleep much easier knowing I covered it completely in I&W. You just never know (blow-off?).

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Omaha, NE
    Posts
    1,879

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    Anyway you look at it, W/I shield really is cheap insurance. Besides, many codes require it.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Northwest lower MI
    Posts
    374

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    Ice and Watershield or one of the other self adhering products is not required, but I doubt that you can laminate a second layer of underlayment any cheaper.
    Michigan state wide code states:
    R905.2.7.1 Ice protection.
    In areas where the average daily temperature in January is 25 ° F (-4 ° C) or less or when Table R301.2(1) criteria so designates, an ice barrier that consists of at least two layers of underlayment cemented together or of a self-adhering polymer modified bitumen sheet, shall be used in lieu of normal underlayment and extend from the eave’s edge to a point at least 24 inches (610 mm) inside the exterior wall line of the building.
    Exception: Detached accessory structures that contain no conditioned floor area.
    Grand Traverse County does not currently require a permit for reroofing, however at least one of the surrounding jurisdiction does.

    R105.2 Work exempt from permit.
    Exemption from the permit requirements of the code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of the code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction. Permits are not required for any of the following: ... (does not include reroofing).

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    150

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger P View Post

    R105.2 Work exempt from permit.
    Exemption from the permit requirements of the code shall not be deemed to grant authorization for any work to be done in any manner in violation of the provisions of the code or any other laws or ordinances of this jurisdiction. Permits are not required for any of the following: ... (does not include reroofing).

    There is a difference here, work exempt from permits and work in a non-code area. Exempt from permit - shed under 120sq. ft., fence under 6', sidewalks and driveways NOT part of an accessible route, all that good stuff, would be exempt from permits, NOT excempt from CODE. A house in the boondocks may be in a non-code area, not subject to permits.

    MN does not have a statewide building code, however, the MN Legislature just passed the MNSBC, as a statewide standard. So now, even with no enforcement, the MNSBC is the standard for the lawyers to reference when fighting a case where someone did not put Ice & Water on a house when they were supposed to.
    Last edited by cblock; 06-06-2008 at 11:33 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    NW suburbs of Chicago.
    Posts
    666

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    I used to visit my Aunt and Uncles Farm in Iron River, MI in the Upper Peninsula and if there ever was a place to insist on I & W Shield, that geographic area would rank right at the top of my list.

    Don't even consider skimping on it and even go farther than the "Minimum Code" or Minimum Specifications.

    I would put an extra row on all the way around to at least have 3 feet past the exterior conditioned living occupied environment.

    Ed
    Stay tuned for a very important message from our sponsor.
    http://www.rightwayroofingcompany.com/
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  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    608

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    I was just about to start a new thread regarding the use of ice and water shield when, by some miracle, I searched first. Sweet.

    The architect spec'd ice and water shield "at valleys, ridges, eaves and gables for a minimum 3'-0" from edge or transition. Typ. entire roof." My roofer came over for a looksee today and completely and totally scoffed at the idea of using I&W on a 10/12 pitch roof in Portland, Oregon. He said in his 30 years roofing in Portland he's never done it. Not even once. In Utah he did it. But not here. We get maybe two or three legitimate snowfalls a year. It freezes occasionally and of course we get rain nearly every day for 7-8 months. The roof has a two foot overhang on rafter and gable ends.

    What say you all?

    Thanks in advance and I hope you don't mind me dredging up a six week old post.
    No brains, no headaches

    Jeff

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Martinez, California
    Posts
    14,855

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    Tile and slate yes, everything else no.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    2,444

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    Portland architect . . . <<<<scoffs also>>>>

    That must be the canned spec from somebody's spec system. I've seen those exact words on a different job.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    608

    Default Re: Is Ice and Water Shield Necessary

    Thanks Dick and NWA. I like my roofer and am glad he's right.

    Interesting that you've seen those exact same words before, NW Architect. I thought only my engineer did that, but I guess my architect does too... Is this typical?
    No brains, no headaches

    Jeff

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