Joe Tedesco in New Jersey

[goldstar]

For those of you interested and who may be close by Joe will be giving seminars in New Jersey at the following locations :

Mon/Tues 3/31/08 and 4/1/08

Holiday Inn Cherry Hill
2175 West Marlton Pike
Cherry Hill, NJ 08002
856-663-5300

Wed/Thurs 4/2 & 3/08

Holiday Inn Hasbrouck Heights
283 Route 17 South
Hasbrouck, NJ 07604
201-288-9600


http://www.americantrainco.com/image...NECX051207.pdf


http://www.joetedesco.org//Seminar_JOE_TEDESCO.pdf

I have to tell you though, this will not be as much fun as meeting Mike "The Pit Bull" Whitt in person !!!

[J.Buesking]

I'm still waiting for him to come visit me here in Louisville like he promised. ;)

[always-learning]

I'm still waiting for him to come visit me here in Louisville like he promised. ;)

J....

You're just too much.... ;-)

[J.Buesking]

Josh

Say hello to A, C, and E!

I will be nearby soon!

Talking about my wife and kid's is borderline stalking Joe.

[markhoni]

Make sure your families are safe! I show this video about a terrible death of a child caused by a Kentucky electrician who used the wrong wiring system at each of my seminars.

Sad that they are still allowed to work.

The others around the Kentucky and other areas who do ILLEGAL electrical work are criminals too!

http://www.youtube.com/electsafeman

Give a Kentuckian a pair of wire cutters and an old car battery, and he thinks he's an electrician.

[BOBELECTRIC]

My coworker going to Trainco code class 4/1/08, in Pgh.Pa. I always enjoy Joe Tedesco.

[BillHartmann]

What is unusal and why is it a problem.

You need a GROUND fault before a GFCI will trip.

And you can't have a ground fault without a ground.

[goldstar]

Bill,

I'm not so sure you're correct on this. A GFI breaker or receptacle should trip due to any disfunction between the hot,neutral and EGC that amounts to 5 milliamps or greater. Now granted, your plug-in tester will not function if there is no EGC present because I think (basiclly) all the test button does is short the EGC to the neutral terminal.

If you are replacing 2 prong receptacles in a residence that has say K & T, the NEC requires that you replace them with GFCI type receptacles. If your statement is correct and there is no EGC available why would the NEC require you to do that ?

[Speedy Petey]

What is unusal and why is it a problem.

You need a GROUND fault before a GFCI will trip.

And you can't have a ground fault without a ground.

Bill, this is very wrong.
The "ground" in GFCI is NOT referring to the ground wire or circuit ground run to the box where the GFI is installed.
In fact, the term GFI is quite a misnomer. A GFI measure the current between the line and neutral (grounded conductor). If there is an imbalance in this current the GFI will open the circuit.
The GFI is assuming there is a leakage to "ground" through something like yourself. NOT a leakage to the ground in the box.

Understand?

[Speedy Petey]

I know a few guys have asked you this in the past, but did you ever tell the hotel what you did and that the GFIs didn't trip?

[Speedy Petey]

....... when I did tell them years ago about the hazards I found in the kitchen in a Holiday Inn in Kansas City, I was asked to leave.....

No kidding?

[BillHartmann]

Bill,

I'm not so sure you're correct on this. A GFI breaker or receptacle should trip due to any disfunction between the hot,neutral and EGC that amounts to 5 milliamps or greater. Now granted, your plug-in tester will not function if there is no EGC present because I think (basiclly) all the test button does is short the EGC to the neutral terminal.

I said NOTHING about an EGC. I said a GROUND. The word ground is used in it's largest meaning. That include the earth ground and everything connected to it.

The NEC and common usage has several different meaning for the word "ground" and "grounding". 95% of the time when the word ground is used it is clear from the context what is ment, but not always.

The British term earth would be a better choice in this case

Basically you are correct that the GFCI is suppose to trip when there is a difference in between the current in the Hot and Neutral of 5 ma. The EGC is not sensed.

For there to be a differnece in current there has to be a ground fault where some current is going from the hot to the "ground", the neutral is connected to something "grounded" so that all of the neutral current from the load does not flow back through the GFCI. I ask again where is this "ground".

The older GFCI's the test button just connected a resistor, sized for 5 ma, between the hot after the current sense transformer and the neutral before the sense transformer.

However, newer ones have a failsafe system. Pressing the test button, even with out power, will trip the GFCI so that is done mechanically, not electrically. But also it won't reset with out and it is not suppose to reset if it is not working correctly. Don't know the details of how the do it, but I think that the test is now if it will reset, not if it will trip.

If you are replacing 2 prong receptacles in a residence that has say K & T, the NEC requires that you replace them with GFCI type receptacles. If your statement is correct and there is no EGC available why would the NEC require you to do that ?

Not exactly. you can still replace ungrounded with unground.

Again I did not talk about an EGC. Why are GFCI's required for receptacles on the outside, but not in a living room?

What would be the affect in a living room (without and GFCI) with a radio has an ungrounded plug whether the receptacle is ungrounded or ground.

And likewise plugged into an outside receptacle with an GFCI.

[BillHartmann]

....
The GFI is assuming there is a leakage to "ground" through something like yourself. NOT a leakage to the ground in the box.

Understand?

Never said that there was leakage in the box.

And the GFCI does not ASSUME anything. It makes a measurement and the if the difference between the currents in the hot and neutral conductors are different by more than 5 ma then it trips.

That current has to go someplace.

And "yourself" is not in the path. So where is the difference in current going or comming from that is suppose to cause the GFCI to trip?

[Speedy Petey]

Bill, I KNOW how a GFI works. It seems that you didn't from your comment. I see now that you do.
I was just trying to help.

And yes, GFIs DO assume things. The last one I spoke to told me so.

[Speedy Petey]

Who are these people?

Conjoined twins?