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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    Boise, Idaho
    Posts
    27

    Default Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    (Subject should have read: Toenailing TJI's as roof rafters..)

    Hi all,

    My daughter is having an old house remodeled, the house framer, employed by the general contractor, seems to have a love affair utilizing a rafter attachment method he calls "pressure blocking", in which he toenails using lots of nails with an air nailer, through one side of a solid wood #2 2x12, then placing the "pressure blocks" cut to length, in between the rafters, face nailing them to the ridge microlam, then nailing through the side of the wood joist, into the end grain of the pressure block. This is contrary to what was specced (metal joist hangars), on the architect designed roof plan.

    To add to this, in another roof location, the same framer ran out of wood #2 Douglas fir 2x12 material, and is substituting TJI 210 Silent Floor engineered joists, using them as roof rafters, which is acceptable, according to Trus-Joist instructional handouts, providing all aspects of the manufacturers specifications are followed, detracting from which, would render null and void the LIFETIME WARRANTY of the TJI joist.

    The problem arises that the framer is now using his pressure block method, toe nailing through the TJI web stiffener, (all plywood) which is an application of OSB, or oriented strand board, applied to each side of the TJI, to enhance the strength of the plywood web of the TJI. then plumb cut to the appropriate roof pitch.

    TJI requires that when the joists (TJI) are used as rafters, and built up on the ends in this way, in a steeply pitched roof application, that a special metal reinforcing strapping be nailed a short ways along the top chord of the joist, at the upper end, over the top and down the back of the ridge beam, where the strap is then nailed. In addition to this, again due to the steepness of the roof pitch (about 10:12 pitch) there is another requirement that there be a variable pitch metal joist hanger, which is engineered for that particular truss, to be utilized.

    Now the problem: we find the roof is now sheeted with the plywood deck, and suddenly the general contractors supervisor has realized that he may have MISTAKENLY taken the word of the framer, that the pressure blocking method of attaching the TJI's was acceptable, (NOT) and that only an application of the top metal strap (I could not find ANY applied when I looked at his work) would be sufficient.

    The local city building inspector left copies of the TJI instruction manual with the framer, and he (the framer) apparently felt it might be beneath him to read the manual, and he knew more than the architects, and designers of the TJI's...

    Now to my question:
    Has anyone out there any experience with an issue such as this? And is there a good way to make it all work out. I hate to think that the roof would have to be torn out and done again, but leaving it as is, would void the TJI company warranty.

    Sorry for the long post,

    Thanks for any input, ahead of time!

    Have a great day!

    Lektrikgold

    FYI: over 35 years in the carpentry trade: heavy, finish, certified welder, foreman, etc..now semi-retired
    Last edited by Lektrikgold; 08-12-2007 at 09:01 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    11,339

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    Start with the strapping- Cut little tabs & nail them to the bottom of the TJI- this will make it look like the strap is installed....

    Just kidding. I wonder if it's really possible to repair this kind of thing. The strap is (the following being pure conjecture) being used to insure the top & bottom chord don't pull off of the web removing the structural integrity of the top part of the TJI. Hmmm.

    Question- if they're calling for hangers I'm assuming this means the ceiling is vaulted? Trying to gain space from the attic? A couple ideas come to mind (that may just be idiotic, but, well, that's what you get from the web).

    1. glue & nail a web filler on both sides of the TJI at the top, with the filler fitting tight against the beam. That will add bearing surface, & would allow you to add strapping around the joist. The connection might not be as good at the top chord, but would add much to the bottom & top part of the web.

    2. Collar ties might ameliorate the engineer's oedipal attraction to Simpson Strong Tie's products. And would give you an extra area to add some of the aforementioned products to make the imp happy.

    3. You could always cut right behind the joists & somehow slide hangers up, but you won't be able to fill all the nail holes.
    http://www.lavrans.com

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts; for support rather than illumination." -Andrew Lang

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Boise, Idaho
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    Hi Lavrans,
    No, the ceiling will not be vaulted, thankfully, it would expose to all the mess those "framers" made, trying to put up the rafters.
    The main body of the house was to be vaulted, but I pointed out to my son-in-law, that having a more flat ceiling surface would be better, more utility wise, running some ducting or even hanging a ceiling fan, which due to its wide span, would present an attachment problem: either a micky mouse surface attachment, which might look like a bad after thought, or a long hangy down affair, which could lend to the fan wobbling a bit. I know nothing about ceiling fans, other than they can have kind of a long span, and could present a ceiling striking issue, hence lowering the ceiling equally beneath the ridge beam a bit. Also the lowering would have a more pleasant radius effect, in transition, as the flat ceiling meets the downslope, and not so much sharp corners at the apex, where the spiders could congregate...

    Thanks!

    Lektrikgold
    Last edited by Lektrikgold; 08-12-2007 at 10:36 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    11,339

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    I wonder why they spec'd hangers for a roof with collar ties, etc.? Maybe they couldn't fit into the right elevation to calc out. Of course, they're getting called for purely out of laziness nowadays as much as necessity.
    http://www.lavrans.com

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts; for support rather than illumination." -Andrew Lang

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Boise, Idaho
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    I think originally, it was to be a pretty much vaulted completly ceiling until I got into the mix, and suggested what you could describe as collar ties, which lowers the ceiling line somewhat, but actually would be more of a nailing base for the ceiling.

    I think I might be stirring the pot a little too much for the supers liking, but the kids are putting over $170,000, into the remodel of this house that barely had about 1000 s.f. of floor space, and I think the framer and maybe even the general might be trying to cash in on some quick $$$, doing a half... job, assuming that the kids are dummies, all the while not knowing that old picky construction stiff dad is in the background checking their work.

    With this sizeable remodel, they will have a big basement, with a full bath there, and one bedroom and 100 inch t.v. screen, main floor with modern kitchen upgrades, and big master bedroom, with all the modern amenities, and from the street, it still looks like the same little old house.

    The roof slope running up, and facing the street, across the entire front, meets the rear hip at the centerline of the house, is what hides all the new area in the back. Kinda hard to describe..

    The house is in a historic area, and a lot of hoops had to be jumped through, even to get the project ok'ed by the historic bigwigs...

    Lektrikgold

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Racine, WI
    Posts
    2,127

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    Is half of the roof 2x12 and the other half I-Joist? Usually hangers are only used when the ridge beam is structural and there won't be any collar ties. If I-Joists were intended to be used from the start as rafters, the architect may have even spec'd a hanger at the eave side as well to avoid cutting a birdsmouth in the I-Joist.

    It might be in your best interest to contact the manufacturer of the I-Joists to set up a site visit so they can point out everything that is wrong with the framing. This way you have proof that the "know it all" framers intentionally framed the roof wrong to void the warranty of the products. You might have enough of a case to make them replace/fix it at their cost.

    Either that, or you could ask around to see if there is a well respected framer in the area that can give a professional opinion on the quality of work being performed.

    It's been my experience that most of the I-Joist mfg's won't even suggest using their products as rafters since the details for blocking and hangers are so specific that not many of the framers will follow their instructions. Too many jobsite visits to tell them they messed up.
    Your guy lost. Get over it.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    581

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    "the same framer ran out of wood #2 Douglas fir 2x12 material, and is substituting TJI 210 Silent Floor engineered joists, using them as roof rafters,"

    It seems that if there was a problem, one could simply sister 2x12s next to the TJIs, but ...

    ---

    Hire an engineer and lawyer.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Boise, Idaho
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    The TJI's were never spec'd by the architect, in this application, only 2x12's on also spec'd metal hangars, so it was just a case of using what was available on site. The framer never did have enough rafters on the site, of the correct length, so there has been a lot of scabbing on rafter tails, etc, which tells me he most likely didn't do a proper takeoff of materials. What the job looks like to me, is a lot of materials that came from a generals boneyard, as there are lots of pitchy, cracked, windshake headers and twisted rafters on being used. In my experience, there was almost always extra rafter stock ordered, in order that the framer could pick through them, to utilize the better lumber, and return them to the supplier for a credit. May be that the practice is not done now, I don't know. I do know that there is less and less good solid rafter stock available.

    The TJI's were left over when a change in direction to facilitate and easier installing heat runs, etc., was done. So they were ripped out, other open style joists were utlilized, but turned 90 degrees, running lengthwise, rather than across the basement.

    So these TJI's lay for over a month, on the flat, where they were walked on daily by the workers, used to cover excavations, etc, so it is possible that the structural integrity of them may have been compromised.

    I did talk to a TJI rep in Sacramento, who is available at any time, at a free phone number listed on the instructional materials delivered with each TJI order. He reinforced the need for the variable pitch hangars and straps, if nothing else than to retain the lifetime warranty of the TJI's. I also talked with the engineering division of TJI, here in town, and they also were concerned with what they were hearing, and indicated that they might have a company rep stop by the job. So I hope we are getting all the bases covered.

    I honestly think it is going to come to a faceoff, as the job field supervisor knows he needs to get the home dried in soon, and may be using that as leverage, in order to make the home owner let it slide. But hopefully, the building inspectors, who are also aware of the situation, will get up where they need to, and do a proper inspection. I hope they don't take the work of the framer about what he may or may not have installed, as I am pretty sure he will not be honest.

    George: I thought about the sistering thing as well , but they have gone on and to do that would require that a lot of the roof sheeting and other roof components on the both sides of the ridge would have to be removed, so there is no easy or quick way to get additional rafter(s) in.

    The "V" notched rigid blocking required at the lower wall, which should be cut in between rafters, has also been left out, so there is another departure from the TJI warranty requirements. For the framer to say that he was intending to put the blocking in later doesn't hold water either, as if he ever intended them to be there, he would have most easily installed them prior to sheeting the roof.

    So on it goes..

    Lektrikgold

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Racine, WI
    Posts
    2,127

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    Sounds like you have most of your bases covered. Keep us posted as to how this all turns out. Good luck.
    Your guy lost. Get over it.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    40

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    I have used TJI in roof aplucations before It looks like to me you need to cut your sheathing back 2-1/2" on the horizontal go into to your simpson book and use the recomended TJI hanger for your rafters If you call your TJI manufacturer who every you used BOSI trost joist 7d some of many out there and yes remove the blocking I am assuming that he used 5/8 T&G advantec on the roof also you must find out if you need ridge blocking in your state simpson also carrys 50' rolls of ridge strapping I allwys use 18" cuts. Check with your building offical. I would also ask if they wont you to gusset the top and bottoms of the TJI rafters I always have if you are not using icynening or selective 200 (foam insulation) witch I like better it does not wick (hold water) selective I mean.you may use the ridge for venting if you have not already. good luck Jason


    Quote Originally Posted by Lektrikgold View Post
    (Subject should have read: Toenailing TJI's as roof rafters..)

    Hi all,

    My daughter is having an old house remodeled, the house framer, employed by the general contractor, seems to have a love affair utilizing a rafter attachment method he calls "pressure blocking", in which he toenails using lots of nails with an air nailer, through one side of a solid wood #2 2x12, then placing the "pressure blocks" cut to length, in between the rafters, face nailing them to the ridge microlam, then nailing through the side of the wood joist, into the end grain of the pressure block. This is contrary to what was specced (metal joist hangars), on the architect designed roof plan.

    To add to this, in another roof location, the same framer ran out of wood #2 Douglas fir 2x12 material, and is substituting TJI 210 Silent Floor engineered joists, using them as roof rafters, which is acceptable, according to Trus-Joist instructional handouts, providing all aspects of the manufacturers specifications are followed, detracting from which, would render null and void the LIFETIME WARRANTY of the TJI joist.

    The problem arises that the framer is now using his pressure block method, toe nailing through the TJI web stiffener, (all plywood) which is an application of OSB, or oriented strand board, applied to each side of the TJI, to enhance the strength of the plywood web of the TJI. then plumb cut to the appropriate roof pitch.

    TJI requires that when the joists (TJI) are used as rafters, and built up on the ends in this way, in a steeply pitched roof application, that a special metal reinforcing strapping be nailed a short ways along the top chord of the joist, at the upper end, over the top and down the back of the ridge beam, where the strap is then nailed. In addition to this, again due to the steepness of the roof pitch (about 10:12 pitch) there is another requirement that there be a variable pitch metal joist hanger, which is engineered for that particular truss, to be utilized.

    Now the problem: we find the roof is now sheeted with the plywood deck, and suddenly the general contractors supervisor has realized that he may have MISTAKENLY taken the word of the framer, that the pressure blocking method of attaching the TJI's was acceptable, (NOT) and that only an application of the top metal strap (I could not find ANY applied when I looked at his work) would be sufficient.

    The local city building inspector left copies of the TJI instruction manual with the framer, and he (the framer) apparently felt it might be beneath him to read the manual, and he knew more than the architects, and designers of the TJI's...

    Now to my question:
    Has anyone out there any experience with an issue such as this? And is there a good way to make it all work out. I hate to think that the roof would have to be torn out and done again, but leaving it as is, would void the TJI company warranty.

    Sorry for the long post,

    Thanks for any input, ahead of time!

    Have a great day!

    Lektrikgold

    FYI: over 35 years in the carpentry trade: heavy, finish, certified welder, foreman, etc..now semi-retired

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    40

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    Sorry I forgot this. you may install your straps over you sheathing remember you must use #8 nails for strap and two #12 nail toenailed in to each end of straps. You also can use the gusets if your need to strainthen them your TJI rep can help you resove this matter It does not sound like a big problem. again good luck

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Boise, Idaho
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    Hi Eastbuild,
    Unfortunately, the TJIS are now toenailed in place, and I suspect have blocking cut in between each, at this point.

    The recommended variable pitch joist hanger is not made like most common U shaped open backed hangers are. That special hanger is made with continuous sheet metal on the rafters plumb cut end, and on the bottom as well as having sides bent around both sides of the plumb cut, and at this point, would have to be slipped up under the rafter (TJI)and that is complicated by the joist already having a lot of toenails shot through it, so it cannot be easily be installed without first removing all of the toenails, etc.

    Applying the straps over the top is ok, I know, but now the backside of the microlam holding the rafters is covered by sheeting, and I am not sure if there is any backing on the opposite slope that could be nailed into, to make a good anchorage point.

    A rep from TJI is supposed to visit the site in the couple days, and hope that he can come up with an idea to salvage the job with out a ton of tearing stuff apart.
    All this could have been avoided if the framer had not been such a "know it all", and read the book.

    Lektrikgold

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Discovery Bay CA
    Posts
    1,269

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    All TJI's that are used for rafters should have web stiffeners on each side of the TJI where it's attached to the ridge. The TJI's should also have sometype of hanger. In your case it would need to be a special ordered sloped HU hanger, since it would be installed after the TJI rafter was attached to the ridge.

    Here's how the TJI rafters should have been installed.

    http://www.sbebuilders.com/gallery/m...tji-hanger.jpg TJI Rafters


    Sim

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    right around the corner
    Posts
    1,609

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lektrikgold View Post
    Hi Eastbuild,
    Unfortunately, the TJIS are now toenailed in place, and I suspect have blocking cut in between each, at this point.

    The recommended variable pitch joist hanger is not made like most common U shaped open backed hangers are. That special hanger is made with continuous sheet metal on the rafters plumb cut end, and on the bottom as well as having sides bent around both sides of the plumb cut, and at this point, would have to be slipped up under the rafter (TJI)and that is complicated by the joist already having a lot of toenails shot through it, so it cannot be easily be installed without first removing all of the toenails, etc.

    Applying the straps over the top is ok, I know, but now the backside of the microlam holding the rafters is covered by sheeting, and I am not sure if there is any backing on the opposite slope that could be nailed into, to make a good anchorage point.

    A rep from TJI is supposed to visit the site in the couple days, and hope that he can come up with an idea to salvage the job with out a ton of tearing stuff apart.
    All this could have been avoided if the framer had not been such a "know it all", and read the book.

    Lektrikgold
    great advice welcome to the forums and Lavrans is on the money as well why the hell did you let your framers continue though?
    JASON

    "The measure of success is how high you bounce after you hit bottom"

    George S. Patton

    www.jmsbuildersandremodelers.com
    (shameless plug for the google bots)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    130

    Default Re: Toenailing TJI's as roof joists, (long problem)

    People come up with all kinds of hair brain ideas when dealing with TJI`s and don`t understand the simple fact that it is a eng. product and is design to carry loads and there is things you can do with them and things you can`t i`ve seen framers leave hangers for special applications with tji`s mostly roof framing with them they leave them out because they can`t simply figure out how the things go on hahaha.....But all and all take some pictures of this stuff your talking about one for us and one for your lawyer best of luck ...

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