GFCI / Art. 680 question

[edlee120]

My question is about the best placement of the GFCI protection in an outdoor system, like for the inground pool I’m going to start wiring tomorrow. I’ll need at 2-pole breaker for the 1-1/2hp pump and a single-pole breaker for lights and required convenience outlet. The trench will be about 130’ long

So, who has an opinion about this: run a single circuit out to a small outdoor subpanel, put the GFCI breaker in the main panel inside the house and regular breakers outside. Or run a single circuit out to a subpanel, put it on a regular breaker and put two GFCI breakers in the subpanel closer to the the actual loads. Or, run the two circuits out, GFCI protected at the main panel , and no subpanel outside.

The way I see it, it’s inefficient to run 2 circuits that far out, so I like a subpanel. I generally like to put GFCI protection close to the load to reduce false tripping. But I'm concerned that putting the GFCI breakers outdoors in this climate could lead to early failure of the breakers.

I don’t have enough experience in New England with this type of installation to know which provides a better long-term job.

Opinions anyone?

Thanks…………Ed

[littlebluetruck]

GFCI protection closer to the load is definitely more convenient when it trips. For the light/plug circuit, you could also use a standard breaker and a GFCI plug: just run to the plug first.

As far as long-term breaker integrity, I'd just make sure to follow the code and use common sense as far as locating the subpanel.

[frenchie]

For what it's worth... subpanel with GFCI breakers in it is how they run it around here.

And unlike the pictures I posted on the "many violations" thread, these were done by real electricians (wires were run in conduit, nice clean job, permits filed).

Anyhow, in terms of long-term viability, you're probably okay. The permit's from '02, and the subpanels are only about 30-40 feet from the Bay, which means lots of slatwater spray...

To give you some idea, these steps are about 5' closer to the Bay. It was melting off by the time I took the pics, but that's salt-water ice, and it wasn't that big a storm.

[jwelectric]

just run to the plug first.

Are you sure about this?

[littlebluetruck]

Plug before light. Not plug before breaker.

(No, I'm not sure the light must be protected, if that's what you're asking; but it can't hurt anything.)

[edlee120]

Thank you Frenchie and Truck for replying. Nice pictures, I had to look hard to see anything electrical. Salt-water ice is the worst!

I'm not gonna decide until I get out there and see what they've set up for the pool equipment. I don't have a problem with a GFI receptacle to protect outlets downstream and it would save a few pennies.

Ed

[jwelectric]

In the 1999 code cycle the words “general-purpose branch circuit” was added to 680-6(a)(2) to prevent the receptacle from being used on the same circuit as the pump motor or light (see attachment).

680.22(A) (3) Dwelling Unit(s). Where a permanently installed pool is installed at a dwelling unit(s), no fewer than one 125-volt 15- or 20-ampere receptacle on a general-purpose branch circuit shall be located not less than 3.0 m (10 ft) from, and not more than 6.0 m (20 ft) from, the inside wall of the pool. This receptacle shall be located not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 6 in.) above the floor, platform, or grade level serving the pool.

An underwater light fixture is required to have an insulated equipment grounding conductor no smaller than a #12 that is without splice or joint from the panel to the light. Unless you can find a GFCI receptacle that has two equipment grounding terminals on it then it can not be installed in line with the light.

680.23(F) (2) Equipment Grounding. Through-wall lighting assemblies, wet-niche, dry-niche, or no-niche luminaires (lighting fixtures) shall be connected to an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor installed with the circuit conductors. The equipment grounding conductor shall be installed without joint or splice except as permitted in (F)(2)(a) and (F)(2)(b). The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122 but shall not be smaller than 12 AWG.
Exception: An equipment grounding conductor between the wiring chamber of the secondary winding of a transformer and a junction box shall be sized in accordance with the overcurrent device in this circuit.
(a) If more than one underwater luminaire (lighting fixture) is supplied by the same branch circuit, the equipment grounding conductor, installed between the junction boxes, transformer enclosures, or other enclosures in the supply circuit to wet-niche luminaires (fixtures), or between the field-wiring compartments of dry-niche luminaires (fixtures), shall be permitted to be terminated on grounding terminals.
(b) If the underwater luminaire (lighting fixture) is supplied from a transformer, ground-fault circuit interrupter, clock-operated switch, or a manual snap switch that is located between the panelboard and a junction box connected to the conduit that extends directly to the underwater luminaire (lighting fixture), the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to terminate on grounding terminals on the transformer, ground-fault circuit interrupter, clock-operated switch enclosure, or an outlet box used to enclose a snap switch.

[edlee120]

the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to terminate on grounding terminals on ...............an outlet box used to enclose a snap switch.

Mike, am i missing something here?

Does this not say that the EQC can terminate/splice at the switch?


Ed

[jwelectric]

Mike, am i missing something here?

Does this not say that the EQC can terminate/splice at the switch?


Ed

Does this not say that the EQC can terminate/****** at the switch?

Terminate, Yes
Splice, No

The equipment grounding conductor shall be installed without joint or splice except as permitted in (F)(2)(a) and (F)(2)(b).

the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to terminate on grounding terminals on the transformer, ground-fault circuit interrupter


Forgot to add attachment in last post so here it is.

EDITED TO ADD

The EGC MUST terminate and can not be spliced under a wire nut in a GFCI device. There is no GFCI receptacle manufactured that will permit two equipment grounding conductors on one screw.

The inclusion of the words “general purpose branch circuit” means that the light can not share the same circuit as the receptacle.

680.23 addresses the branch circuit for an underwater light fixture which means that it is to be installed on a circuit to itself and not on a general purpose circuit that is shared with the receptacle.

[edlee120]

680.23 addresses the branch circuit for an underwater light fixture which means that it is to be installed on a circuit to itself and not on a general purpose circuit that is shared with the receptacle.

I don't see that in 680.23


Ed

[jwelectric]

680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment.
Any and all of these can be wired in UF cable except for the pump motor which will be required to be installed with an insulated EGC, 680.21 Motors.


680.23 Underwater Luminaires (Lighting Fixtures).
This section covers all luminaires (lighting fixtures) installed below the normal water level of the pool.

This section addresses the wiring methods for wiring underwater lighting fixtures and has one section that addresses the branch circuit that supplies the fixture, 680.23(F) Branch-Circuit Wiring.
There is no allowance or requirement for the fixture to be installed on a general purpose circuit but there is a requirement that an insulated EGC that is with out joint or splice to be installed in the circuit.

EDITED TO ADD

After reading my post above I need to clear a couple of things up that could be misleading in my statements. I am not going to be around my computer for a few hours tonight so I will just explain it in detail.

The circuit that supplies the underwater light is required to be installed in a raceway from the panel to the light. This raceway must have an equipment grounding conductor that is no smaller than #12 and it must be insulated. It can not have a splice nor joint any where between the light and the panel.

If a GFCI receptacle is installed on this same circuit it must be in a box that is supplied with a raceway from the panel and continue on to the light. The equipment grounding conductor must be insulated and not smaller than #12. The Equipment Grounding Conductor can not be cut with a wire nut in the box for the GFCI. The EGC must be without joint or splice from the panel to the light.
The same is true for a switch installed for the light. The EGC can not land under a wire nut to ground either device. It must land uncut under the grounding terminal for the device and continue on to the light. This would be without joint or splice.

The GFCI receptacle can not be supplied with UF cable and pipe ran from the receptacle box to the light as this would not have an insulated EGC back to the panel.

I was hoping that someone would post this before the day was out.

I have always installed a separate circuit for a pool light and always will in the future. I want the EGC to be intact from service to light with no way to fail.

[edlee120]

Hi Mike, I don't read it the way you do.

1st off, already the GEC will be spliced because the 120v wet-niche fixture itself comes with a flexible 16/3 cord which is to be run to the required pool luminaire junction box.

2nd, the words from .23(F)(2)(B) "the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to terminate on grounding terminals on the transformer, ground-fault circuit interrupter, clock-operated switch enclosure, or an outlet box used to enclose a snap switch."

Terminate, as in end. To me this means that as long as a switch is located on the load side of a GFI device and that the branch circuit is run in the appropriate conduit with the appropriate #12 insulated GEC, that the continous requirement begins at the snapswitch enclosure and ends at the approved pool-lighting junction box.

I'm going to meet with the local inspector tomorrow for a look at the bonding grid and trench, and I will talk to him about it. He's a knowledgable guy and I'll be interested in what he has to say.

Ed

[jwelectric]

Please let us know what he has to say.

As to the junction box for the cord for the underwater fixture;
680.24(D) Grounding Terminals. Junction boxes, transformer enclosures, and ground-fault circuit-interrupter enclosures connected to a conduit that extends directly to a forming shell or mounting bracket of a no-niche luminaire (fixture) shall be provided with a number of grounding terminals that shall be no fewer than one more than the number of conduit entries.

[edlee120]

yeah I will.

"shall be provided with a number of grounding terminals that shall be no fewer than one more than the number of conduit entries."

yeah I know that. That's why I made a point of saying I'm using the "required pool luminaire junction box".

[edlee120]

Met with my inspector today and a good time was had. Anyway, he mentioned before I asked that the pool light wants it's own circuit. I asked why and he veered off onto another topic about the various circuits and GFI protection. I didn't get back to it because we had a lot to talk about.

And the continous GEC required for it can terminate in the toggle-switch box.


Learn something new every day................Ed