question for Tim Uhler

[charles]

Hey Tim, I enjoyed your hipped tray ceiling article this month.

Suppose you were adding a hipped tray ceiling under an existing flat ceiling and you want to install the tray rafters flush to the tray ceiling (soffit). How would you size the lower rim boards?

[Tim Uhler]

Hey Tim, I enjoyed your hipped tray ceiling article this month.

Suppose you were adding a hipped tray ceiling under an existing flat ceiling and you want to install the tray rafters flush to the tray ceiling (soffit). How would you size the lower rim boards?

Charles,

I just saw your post and I have to take off to work, but I'll post tonight. It's been a long long time since we did this ceiling in an place other than where we could frame up into the attic.

The quick answer without having thought about it (so I'm probably way off base :-)) is that it would all depend on the height of the ceiling, the height of windows and doors. We usually hold our headers right to the top of the wall, so a 4x10 with a 2x6 nailed to the bottom + topplates gives us about 14". If we know ahead of time that we are doing the ceiling we can maybe move the window lower if it doesn't have to match anything. You can see what I mean in this picture and this picture. One more. I like to use 2x12 to get full bearing on the plumb cut on the 2x4 rafters. If I had to do this ceiling in a room where I couldn't go up, I'd probably just nail a 2x8 or 2x10 to the wall and then the rafters right into that and it would be hid when drywalled. I'll try my extremely rudimentary skills with Sketchup later tonight or tomorrow to show what I mean.

[charles]

I wish I could play with SketchUp, but my computers are too old and slow to meet their requirements.

Basically I was just asking for a rim board span table, i.e. what's actually necessary structurally to support the extra 2 x 4's and drywall. Of course that would depend on the dimensions of the room as well as the depth of the tray. Let's say the room is 16' x 16', the existing ceiling is 9' and the tray soffit will be at 8'. Disregard windows and doors. I don't see any real need for the rafter plumb cuts to have full bearing on the rim - as long as I can get a couple of 16d into each, I'm happy.

I suppose if you thought ahead, you could hang 2 x 4 rim boards from the existing joists over any span. A few screws and Simpson ties would do the trick. I think the soffit framing could even be 2 x 2. Can you mount a recessed can light on a 2 x 2?

[charles]

OK, 2 x 2's are stupid -- gotta anticipate that the HO will want to hang something heavy from the soffit finger joists.

But I still say the soffit rim can be 2 x 4 with some thinking ahead. Don Dunkley had an article in May 1997 that touched on this subject. He said he uses "what would be required for a floor joist of the equivalent span, then double it up." Why not take advantage of the existing floor joists and hang 2 x 4 soffit rim boards from them. Sound OK to you?

[Joe Carola]

OK, 2 x 2's are stupid -- gotta anticipate that the HO will want to hang something heavy from the soffit finger joists.

But I still say the soffit rim can be 2 x 4 with some thinking ahead. Don Dunkley had an article in May 1997 that touched on this subject. He said he uses "what would be required for a floor joist of the equivalent span, then double it up." Why not take advantage of the existing floor joists and hang 2 x 4 soffit rim boards from them. Sound OK to you?

Charles,

It depends on the spans and what type of tray ceiling you’re going to have. I framed a house where the owner wanted a tray ceiling in the dining room but wanted the tray to start about 5" up from the soffit. I think the room was 17x14 and I used a 2x12 box for the inside rim and from the 2x12 box I strung lines and then nailed 2x4's to the walls.

I ran the first two 2x12's the 14' way going from wall to wall and then nailed the longer ones into them and just put a couple vertical 2x4's up into the joists. Using the 2x12's was fast and easy. I could've used a 2x8 but at first the owner didn't know how high up he wanted to start the tray until I got the box up there and started putting some 2x's up for him.

The other tray ceiling I used a 2x6 box and that was in a bathroom.

Here’s a couple of pictures with poor quality but here they are.

[Tim Uhler]

OK, 2 x 2's are stupid -- gotta anticipate that the HO will want to hang something heavy from the soffit finger joists.

But I still say the soffit rim can be 2 x 4 with some thinking ahead. Don Dunkley had an article in May 1997 that touched on this subject. He said he uses "what would be required for a floor joist of the equivalent span, then double it up." Why not take advantage of the existing floor joists and hang 2 x 4 soffit rim boards from them. Sound OK to you?

Charles,

I'm sorry for not getting back to you sooner, but I've been slowly going bald this weekend working with SU :-) Its good to be frustrated or something . . .

Anyway, I hesitate to give you an answer because I don't really know the answer. In my situation, I make the call with each situation. The last one of these we did, I used doubled 2x12 because I had them, and the span was bout 18' or so if I remember correctly.

The other issue about these ceilings in my estimation is drywall cracks. I should have written to double up and bevel the hips, but since I typically keep these things 3' or less, and the drywallers haven't said anything (I ask them), it hasn't been an issue. If you were to use a smaller piece of lumber, and support it, it seems to me that you might be creating a greater chance of drywall cracks due to lumber movement. I realize that doubled 2x12 could do that too (we use KD lumber), but I was mostly thinking about settling as an issue in your case.

I don't know what to tell you though. Don's suggestion about matching the span on the span chart and doubling builds in some "insurance" into the framing.

[steelydrifter]

I like to face the bulkhead soffits with osb, usually plenty of rips left from the roof or floor. If you shoot 2x2 or 2x4's to the ceiling, face it with osb and shoot another 2x at the bottom you really don't need to stud it in between the top and bottom, only block it back to the walls sufficiently to keep it straight, and you can do pull-ups on it all day long. Even you fat guys. (no offense, I don't miss any meals myself)

[Tim Uhler]

and you can do pull-ups on it all day long. Even you fat guys. (no offense, I don't miss any meals myself)

I might just try that :-)

[JourneymanCarpenterT]

Tim, I also enjoyed your article on “Framing a Hipped Tray Ceiling.” After the business and legal department, it was the first article I read. Besides being a good article, seeing your name in the past online might’ve also had something to do with that. I began subscribing to JLC only recently, and there you are in my second issue.

I must admit though, when I saw the name “Tim,” and then “female” listed under gender on your breaktime profile awhile back, it made me wonder: (1) If you really were who you said you were. (2) If you were simply confused about who you were. I looked up your profile at breaktime again just now. It still says the same thing. You might want to look into that. I suppose most people probably know who are anyway, seeing as how you’re a contributor to JLC magazine.

There was one thing I was wondering about in your article. I noticed you mark the succeeding rafter with the kerf of a saw set at full depth. I’ve used this method before for studs, and found the succeeding 2x's slowly growing shorter. Does this ever happen to you? Also, do you use this method for your roof rafters as well? Finally, for jobs requiring many of the same rafter, such as gable roof rafters, what do you think of Larry Haun’s multiple rafter technique (flushing up a row of 2x’s on edge, snapping a couple lines, and then cutting them all at once with either a chain saw attachment or beam saw. Or, if you don’t have either one, marking them all with a gauged square at the point of each chalk line, and then cutting them with the circular saw)?

[Tim Uhler]

Tim, I also enjoyed your article on “Framing a Hipped Tray Ceiling.” After the business and legal department, it was the first article I read. Besides being a good article, seeing your name in the past online might’ve also had something to do with that. I began subscribing to JLC only recently, and there you are in my second issue.

I must admit though, when I saw the name “Tim,” and then “female” listed under gender on your breaktime profile awhile back, it made me wonder: (1) If you really were who you said you were. (2) If you were simply confused about who you were. I looked up your profile at breaktime again just now. It still says the same thing. You might want to look into that. I suppose most people probably know who are anyway, seeing as how you’re a contributor to JLC magazine.

There was one thing I was wondering about in your article. I noticed you mark the succeeding rafter with the kerf of a saw set at full depth. I’ve used this method before for studs, and found the succeeding 2x's slowly growing shorter. Does this ever happen to you? Also, do you use this method for your roof rafters as well? Finally, for jobs requiring many of the same rafter, such as gable roof rafters, what do you think of Larry Haun’s multiple rafter technique (flushing up a row of 2x’s on edge, snapping a couple lines, and then cutting them all at once with either a chain saw attachment or beam saw. Or, if you don’t have either one, marking them all with a gauged square at the point of each chalk line, and then cutting them with the circular saw)?

Criminy! I AM confused about a great many things, but I am all man!:-) ehhh

I have noticed that each succeeding piece can be different and that is why we limit it to 2 or 3 pieces stacked, or we'll use the Big Foot and get 2 1/2 pieces with each cut. If the mitersaw is set up, we'll use that too.

About Larry Haun, we started gang cutting about 3 years ago. I'm still not that good at organizing the racks, I prefer to layout sections at at a time and often I'll cut valley jacks out of cutoffs and such instead of laying them all out in the racks. For gable roofs, the racks are so stinkin' quick.

Heres a few pics
Me
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/.../139046906.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/.../136490233.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/.../136490231.jpg

Most of the pics are of Jasen http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/...3/89601179.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/...3/89601176.jpg

I'll try and take some more when we get to the roof of the frame
we
are currently on. couple more pics. Left to right Matt, Jasen and me

[JourneymanCarpenterT]

Thanks for the pics Tim. Great work, and you certainly have some great tools to get the job done.

[littlebluetruck]

Tim -

Just curious... why is that wall framed 12" o.c.?

[Tim Uhler]

Tim -

Just curious... why is that wall framed 12" o.c.?

It's actually 24"oc, but it looks small compared to us :-)

That's what the engineer called out. In the packet he supplies with drawings and calcs (I should take a picture so the guys who don't have to deal with engineering can see what it's like :-)) he has the side elevation of that gable and he wrote that anything over 9'6" and is unbraced, need calcs and 12" oc is what he calc'd. The back wall, which can't be seen in these pics, will go all the way up to the rafters, but we can build it in 2 peices because it'll have the back porch ceiling framing to help stiffen it. Also there are a couple of 2 story walls inside that could be framed in 2 peices because the lands against it and the sheathed roof acts to support that wall.

I can post pics off and on as we go that show this if you want. I try and take pics as often as I can and with a digital camera it is so easy. Its cool to be able to document jobs and then go back and look at the photos and see how different we do things each time. Plus there are some really good memories when you go back and look at houses from 2 or 3 or 4 years ago.