Cedar Siding

[Tim Uhler]

Anyone here still use cedar siding at all? I'm not a huge fan of Hardi and no one here in our company really likes LP. I was hoping to try the Boise Cascade Homeplate siding, but that isn't going to be on the market any time soon or ever. I talked to a guy at the Boise Cascade booth at JLC LIVE and he said the production problems were too big to overcome.

I've heard just a little about the fingerjointed cedar siding that comes factory primed. Has anyone used it or any kind of cedar lately? What product? What were your experiences?

I'm talking about lap siding. We've got a rambler coming up and would like to try something different on it. Any opinions, suggestions, etc are welcome.

[Renaissance Restorations]

I use cedar siding primed on all restoration work I've done. I backprime the siding and edges before installation. One house I did is going on a 10 year paint job w/cedar siding and it looks as good as the day it was installed. A client I lost to a "low bidder contractor, will work for cash", used pine siding, and after a year, it's peeling, and the sap is bleeding through.

[Tim Uhler]

I use cedar siding primed on all restoration work I've done. I backprime the siding and edges before installation. One house I did is going on a 10 year paint job w/cedar siding and it looks as good as the day it was installed. A client I lost to a "low bidder contractor, will work for cash", used pine siding, and after a year, it's peeling, and the sap is bleeding through.

Have you tried the fingerjointed factory primed cedar? That's what I'm interested in. Although it's been so long since we used bevel cedar siding that any info is great since I don't know anything about this.

[Bill Robinson]

Tim, I haven't installed any real wood siding for many years but have seen the products and demos at JLCLive and believe Cedar to be a good choice if you are excluding fiber-cement and LP Smart side.
Here is a link to the cedar association siding website.
http://www.cedar-siding.org/
When we did wood siding it was usually redwood here in CA.
I am a fan of LP Smart Side and Hardie both with a leaning towards LP Smart side just because it is so easy to work with.

Bill R

[TSJHD1]

Tim,
If it (FJ cedar) is anything like the pre-primed FJ redwood 5/4 and 1x fascia, frieze, and corner trims I used (not my call) on my last siding job (1 1/2 years ago), I can tell you that we did not think about the fact that since the wood-grain texture does show thru the paint on the surface somewhat, and the fingerjoints raise a bit also, when the sunlight hits it just right, it looked terrible! It looked like all these separate pieces of different textures of wood joined together, which is what it is I realize. This stuff was pre-primed on all sides, and was stored in the garage until installed. A lot of it had to be sanded, then spot-primed to get those imperfections to disappear. I believe that it was fine after painted, but there was an awful lot of (unexpected) extra labor involved to make it right.
I used to love installing clear redwood and cedar, but since Hardie came along, I haven't done any. Why don't you like Hardie? It comes in pre-finished textures now, with matching caulk, so all you have to do is paint the trim. If the framing is very good (yes you have to be more particular with your wall framing, even use 2x6's if possible), blind-nailing this stuff will give excellent results. I didn't care for it at first, but now I'm a fan.

Tom

[Dick Seibert]

Tim:

I went into my lumber broker the other day to check on the fingerjointed redwood siding (I've never used it and wanted to give it a try, it was $2.10), he told me that they were no longer making it since the mill at Scotia closed down. I then asked about cedar, and 1x10 Clear Rabbited Bevel is $2.74 a lineal foot, 1x10 KD B Grade redwood is $2.33, with KD A Grade redwood being $2.58! The stupid government raised the tariff on Canadian cedar so it won't undercut our redwood, and they actually have caused it float higher!

What do you mean by lap siding? The cedar industry calls lap siding differently form the redwood industry. I used to call plain lap siding when we lapped boards like they do the Hardie products today, but I had too many problems with it splitting and went to rabbeted bevel or V rustic so everything lays flat against the building for nailing. I know, they tell us the siding shouldn't lay flat against the building anymore, it should be off the building for drainage. Funny, I've installed miles of it over the last 50 years never bothering to back prime it, and never had any problems here in the Bay Area. Of course I was using first growth wood which we can't get anymore.

As far as I am concerned you have two choices if you want wood siding, redwood or cedar, anything less will devalue your houses. Hardie is still settling claims on their failed roof shingles (if it won't hold up on roofs I don't want it on my walls) and Smartside is nothing but painted flakeboard. LP is done settling claims on it's last failed products, I looked at a case against LP fiberboard this weekend, I think it's too late but we'll see what LP does. it's be interesting to see if they'll stand behind their products after the statute has run.

[Dancing Dan]

We still do a a fair amount of cedar siding. I love it as a material, but it's a bummer that most of it is red cedar from British Columbia and is being harvested in non-sustainable ways. I agree that the FJ is a mixed bag - it uses the materials more efficiently I'm sure, but I have seen the joints telegraph. I've also seen jobs where they look fine and are un-noticeable with a couple of coats of paint on them. I haven't used it myself more than a couple of times on small jobs.

Just as an aside, when we do shingles, I try to get white cedar, which isn't coming from the old-growth trees that red cedar frequently does.

[Allan Edwards]

I just built a storage building at my ranch, I wanted something "rustic". I bought some old "barn siding", stuff with red milk paint on it that came off a barn in Ohio. It wasn't cheap, $4/board ft. Looks great.

By the way, it is oak. Thickness varied from 3/4" to about 5/4".

[Tim Uhler]

Tim:

I went into my lumber broker the other day to check on the fingerjointed redwood siding (I've never used it and wanted to give it a try, it was $2.10), he told me that they were no longer making it since the mill at Scotia closed down. I then asked about cedar, and 1x10 Clear Rabbited Bevel is $2.74 a lineal foot, 1x10 KD B Grade redwood is $2.33, with KD A Grade redwood being $2.58! The stupid government raised the tariff on Canadian cedar so it won't undercut our redwood, and they actually have caused it float higher!

What do you mean by lap siding? The cedar industry calls lap siding differently form the redwood industry. I used to call plain lap siding when we lapped boards like they do the Hardie products today, but I had too many problems with it splitting and went to rabbeted bevel or V rustic so everything lays flat against the building for nailing. I know, they tell us the siding shouldn't lay flat against the building anymore, it should be off the building for drainage. Funny, I've installed miles of it over the last 50 years never bothering to back prime it, and never had any problems here in the Bay Area. Of course I was using first growth wood which we can't get anymore.

As far as I am concerned you have two choices if you want wood siding, redwood or cedar, anything less will devalue your houses. Hardie is still settling claims on their failed roof shingles (if it won't hold up on roofs I don't want it on my walls) and Smartside is nothing but painted flakeboard. LP is done settling claims on it's last failed products, I looked at a case against LP fiberboard this weekend, I think it's too late but we'll see what LP does. it's be interesting to see if they'll stand behind their products after the statute has run.

Dick,

Right after I posted the thread, I started doing some research at http://www.cedar-siding.org/ and realized that I wasn't using the right terminology. I should have said bevel siding.

I just like the look of cedar or redwood. We've used Hardi for awhile with no problems. We were thinking on a single story, it might be nice to use a nice looking wood siding. Just a brainstorm thing at this point. I was hoping you'd post because I thought I'd read in the past here that you use wood siding.

[Tim Uhler]

Tim,
I used to love installing clear redwood and cedar, but since Hardie came along, I haven't done any. Why don't you like Hardie? It comes in pre-finished textures now, with matching caulk, so all you have to do is paint the trim. If the framing is very good (yes you have to be more particular with your wall framing, even use 2x6's if possible), blind-nailing this stuff will give excellent results. I didn't care for it at first, but now I'm a fan.

Tom

Tom,

I'm uneasy about Hardi. There are always rumors and such that float around. I can't think of anything specific, but we were thinking about trying to set our house apart and because it wasn't a huge amount of siding, it seemed like it might be a good idea. We won't switch completely over, but wanted to do something different.

My personal feeling is that if we continue to use Hardi, we need to start using fingerjointed studs. We already use 2x6 KD studs and sheathe the walls, but in certain light Hardi looks like crap. We sided this house hardi and on the right hand side there with the gable, it looked really nice and straight. There is one time of the day for about 10 minutes last July where it looked less than stellar. I see that a lot and I don't like that.

[Tim Uhler]

Tim, I haven't installed any real wood siding for many years but have seen the products and demos at JLCLive and believe Cedar to be a good choice if you are excluding fiber-cement and LP Smart side.
Here is a link to the cedar association siding website.
http://www.cedar-siding.org/
When we did wood siding it was usually redwood here in CA.
I am a fan of LP Smart Side and Hardie both with a leaning towards LP Smart side just because it is so easy to work with.

Bill R

Bill,

My dad (boss) has been leaning toward trying Smart Side for awhile now. Why do you like to so much? When I first started framing in high school that is all we used and to be honest, we didn't have as many problems with it going bad as many did and I think that is because we paid attention to caulking and our painter did a good job. Maybe it's time for us to try it again.

I've done my share of Hardi and I'm sick of the dust and the short lengths. I don't mind siding at all, but the shears are slow and my tongue goes numb from the dust. I heard that WISHA (WA's version of OSHA) was fining guys for not using masks. When it is installed correctly it looks great, especially with darker paint colors, I just don't really like using it.

I guess what I'm hoping you'll do for me is make a case for the product.

By the way, I met you in Portland. I was standing at the Veto Pro Pack booth toward the end of of Friday and you stopped by to talk to the owner. I'm sure you don't remember me and at the time I was a little slow to recognize your name.

[Dick Seibert]

Tim:

You're so close to Canada, can't you get a broker in Vancouver to ship you a truck and trailer load of rabbited bevel cedar siding? With the number of houses you're building you should go through the load in a few houses. On average I was getting 2 to 3 5,000 square foot houses out of a truck and trailer load. No taxes to pay either, but be sure to negotiate your lengths, I want as many bundles of 20 footers as I can get! If you don't negotiate the lengths others will, and you'll be left with shorts.

[Tim Uhler]

Tim:

You're so close to Canada, can't you get a broker in Vancouver to ship you a truck and trailer load of rabbited bevel cedar siding? With the number of houses you're building you should go through the load in a few houses. On average I was getting 2 to 3 5,000 square foot houses out of a truck and trailer load. No taxes to pay either, but be sure to negotiate your lengths, I want as many bundles of 20 footers as I can get! If you don't negotiate the lengths others will, and you'll be left with shorts.

We probably could. We've done similar in the past for cedar shakes for the roofs on those houses I posted pics of. I'll look into that if that is the route we take. We have some mills up here that aren't more than 2 hours away that we can contact also. Shelton is a big lumber town and it's 1 hour from us, so we have a lot of options. BC lumber is good though. We've had plywood come that was so white and blemish free that you wouldn't believe it.

[Bill Robinson]

You were with another guy at Roger's booth right?
And you already had bags and were kidding around about the bags?
Yeah, I remember you but didn't catch your name at the time.
I will be doing GP DensShield and DensArmor next time ('06) in Seattle, come by and say hello.

As you might know, I was demo'ing LP Smart Trim in Portland and have been doing that for a while at JLCLive.

I have used some of it on the back of my shop and it is holding up fine--after two years. Maybe not the test of time but it is looking good. I also left some laying on the ground to rot, but it didn't.
It is not the same stuff as the old Innershield.
I have talked to guys all over the country who use the trim and they have no complaints.
Lots of builders are using it in the horizontal siding form and the 4x stuff with great success.

I don't think LP is stupid enough to put out another product with much chance of failure. All products are subject to failure if mis-applied.
If you like, I will put you in touch with the are LP rep and maybe he can help you decide.

Contact me offline of you want the LP rep's contact info.
I will be glad to give you the nickle tour on how to work with it if you like.
Bill R

[Tim Uhler]

You were with another guy at Roger's booth right?
And you already had bags and were kidding around about the bags?
Yeah, I remember you but didn't catch your name at the time.
I will be doing GP DensShield and DensArmor next time ('06) in Seattle, come by and say hello.

As you might know, I was demo'ing LP Smart Trim in Portland and have been doing that for a while at JLCLive.

I have used some of it on the back of my shop and it is holding up fine--after two years. Maybe not the test of time but it is looking good. I also left some laying on the ground to rot, but it didn't.
It is not the same stuff as the old Innershield.
I have talked to guys all over the country who use the trim and they have no complaints.
Lots of builders are using it in the horizontal siding form and the 4x stuff with great success.

I don't think LP is stupid enough to put out another product with much chance of failure. All products are subject to failure if mis-applied.
If you like, I will put you in touch with the are LP rep and maybe he can help you decide.

Contact me offline of you want the LP rep's contact info.
I will be glad to give you the nickle tour on how to work with it if you like.
Bill R

Bill

Good memory. I kid around a lot and some people think I'm funny, others think I should be shot. I think they are both right sometimes :-)

I'll think about your offer and pass it along. We may try a house with it. I'm still not sure whether I like the Smart Side trim, but the actual siding we may try.